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Transfer those guns!!

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by jjv1234, Jan 5, 2009.

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  1. jjv1234

    jjv1234 Member

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    Dateline Iowa from Metro Section of Des Moines Register Jan. 5, 2009
    Council Bluffs, Iowa

    Police issue warrants for alleged gun owner

    Warrants have been issued for a Council Bluffs man who police say owned the gun used in a deadly shooting last fall.
    Pottawattamie County Attorney Matt Wilber said the warrants charge 24-year-old Mitchell Schard with involuntary manslaughter, accessory after the fact and obstruction of justice for the Oct. 18 shooting that killed 20-year-old Steve Hurd. Authorities have said the shooting was accidental.
    Another man, 23-year-old Shane Hollenbach, pleaded guilty to involuntary manslaughter on Dec. 22. He faces up to two years in prison when he is sentenced Jan. 12.
    Hollenbach shot Hurd, but police say the gun belonged to Schard.
    Police have been unable to locate Schard.

    **There may be something more going on here than the article states and the lesson learned is that guns that are registered in your name can come back to haunt you. It does not say whether the gun was loaned or sold to Hollenbach; all that matters is the gun was registered to Schard therefore it belongs to him.

    This shooting was ruled accidental and Schard STILL has charges against him for someone else's mistake with a gun registered in his name. Imagine the monetary liability in a civil suit that Schard will likely face from Hurd's family as well--don't let the paper trail end with you.
     
  2. Hydra

    Hydra TS Member

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    One the papers are going to blow this thing way out of line and do their best to make the gun owners look bad. They do it all the time. This falls in the same court and smoking gun co being sued. It will go no where. But yes it is a pain in the rear to have to go through this BS. If I SAID IF you register you guns you will be handing them to the antigun people. They want to know where the guns are so they can tax them, take them and to hassle you at any time they want to. An unregistered gun scares them and thats good for us. Fear the gov that fears your guns.
     
  3. Delbert

    Delbert TS Member

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    If they can go after the owner, why couldn't they go after all the previous owners also? Why couldn't they also go after the dealer who originally sold the gun? Oh wait, they already do that, just ask Bloomberg.
     
  4. timb99

    timb99 Well-Known Member

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    So you're saying that if I sell a gun to you and (legally) don't go through an FFL, or you steal it from me, or you borrow it from me, and you use it in a crime, I'm liable for what you did with the gun? Hmmm.

    Where did you get from this story that the gun was registered and that's how they got the information that the gun was owned by the guy they're looking for?

    I do not believe the police are legally able to use FFL transfers in their investigations anyway.

    And as far as I know, mandatory gun registration is limited to a few specific places, like New York City.
     
  5. Hydra

    Hydra TS Member

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    Delbert, If I remember right Bush past a law that stopped all those law suits against the gun co. People can no longer go after the firearm co. I feel that would also go for the previous owners of a gun. Now if the Previous own knew the buyer was a felon then he is in big trouble by knowing he was selling to a known felon.
     
  6. tachyon

    tachyon Member

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    There is a bit more to the story. It is my understanding that the "party" was being held at Schard's apartment. According to police they were all drunk and Schard brought out his gun. There were a number of underage people at the party. After the accidental shooting everyone split. Schard then refused to tell the police who was at the party, and the gun was not located for a few days. Schard was arrested for interfering the night of the shooting.
    Schard is still missing.

    The AP story failed to mention most of the above, only indicating that they were looking for the owner of the gun.
     
  7. timb99

    timb99 Well-Known Member

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    Bruce,

    Good to know a little more of the facts.
     
  8. jjv1234

    jjv1234 Member

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    I guess my point is why does it matter who owns the gun when another individual was established as the shooter? Second question is how did the police determine who was the owner of the gun? Hearsay of the partygoers? Doesn't there have to be a paper trail to establish ownership of the gun to issue a warrant for involuntary manslaughter? If so, where does this paper trail end?
     
  9. recurvyarcher

    recurvyarcher Well-Known Member

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    There is more to this story than meets the eye:


    Published Tuesday December 30, 2008
    Arrest warrant issued for gun's owner



    COUNCIL BLUFFS — A warrant has been issued for the arrest of a 24-year-old Council Bluffs man who police said owned the gun involved in an accidental shooting that killed a Plattsmouth man.

    Pottawattamie County Attorney Matt Wilber said a warrant was issued for Mitchell Schard charging him with two counts of involuntary manslaughter, one is a felony and the other a misdemeanor, as well as accessory after the fact and obstruction of justice.

    Steve Hurd, 20, died in October after he was shot with a .22-caliber derringer while at a party at Schard’s apartment in Council Bluffs. Hurd’s brother, Sam Hurd, said another person at the party, Shane Hollenbach, was "jacking around" with the gun and a cigarette lighter that looked like the gun when the gun went off.

    Hollenbach, 23, pleaded guilty last week to misdemeanor involuntary manslaughter in the shooting. He had been charged with felony involuntary manslaughter.

    Hollenbach could face up to two years in prison when he is sentenced in early January. Wilber said, however, that his office will not ask that Hollenbach be incarcerated.

    Anyone with information on Schard’s whereabouts is asked to call Council Bluffs police at 712-328-5737
     
  10. recurvyarcher

    recurvyarcher Well-Known Member

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    tachyon got to it more quickly, and with more details.

    I think that if you are going to have a beer party at your house, that you might want to lock up your guns, just to keep your guests safer and to keep your butt out of the sling.
     
  11. halfmile

    halfmile Well-Known Member

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    Someone has to elaborate on the "registered" portion of this story. If they used a 4473 to track the owner there would have been a lot of red tape, ATF would have to follow the chain (using the serial number)from wholesaler to dealer to ultimate buyer, who then may or may not have been the posessor of the POS derrringer.

    Of course if there is a local registration ordinance then that explains it, but how many cities require it?

    Pretty soon they will have titles like cars, what BS.

    HM
     
  12. Delbert

    Delbert TS Member

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    I didn't see anything about the brand of the derringer being POS. That's a new brand for me.
     
  13. 870

    870 Well-Known Member

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    HM:

    "Of course if there is a local registration ordinance then that explains it, but how many cities require it?"

    Never mind how many cities, how does all of NY State sound to you? I'm sure there are other states that register handguns as well.
     
  14. tachyon

    tachyon Member

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    halfmile, None of the news stories indicated that "registration" information was used to identify the owner of the gun. The comment by jjv1234 after the two ** was his interpretation of the situation. From what I know identification of Schard as the owner of the gun came from interviews with those attending the party (including a number of underage individuals) and others who knew him and indicated that he owned a 22 cal derringer. There was no "trace" via a 4473 and I am pretty sure ATF was not involved in the case. If he is apprehended and if the charges are not dropped/plead away it will be up to the prosecution to prove that he was the owner of the gun and that he made it available during the party.

    Iowa requires a person to have a permit to purchase a handgun and a permit for concealed carry. They do not "register" handguns.

    Bottom line for this case was a bunch of drunk/high people were playing around with a lighter that looked like a gun and a real loaded gun, someone pulled a trigger and someone died.
     
  15. maclellan1911

    maclellan1911 TS Member

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    Registration of all guns required in massachusetts, now if I read the laws right if you are a licensed gun owner here in mass and get caught with a un registered gun, the punishment is more than if you where not licensed. Thats just how it reads to me. Guys It aint all that free, left and right coast is closeing the gap, think its time for every gun owner to join NRA and local gun rights orgs?
     
  16. halfmile

    halfmile Well-Known Member

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    Wow, I was unaware there was so much genuine registration in various areas of the country.

    Certainly seems like infringement under the constitution's wording to me.

    maclellan is right.

    I hope when the economy collapses they just go get all those guns so no one causes trouble.

    HM
     
  17. Lead Man

    Lead Man TS Member

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    The gun dealer is supposed to keep the 4473 for a number of years, can't remember the exact time. The state and federal background check boys are not supposed to keep any info, LOL. Any of you that know a dealer ask them how many times the feds have come and asked for the 4473 after a crime was committed. More than the dealer would like to admit is the case with many I know. The feds are all over the distributors and the distributors will have a record of the dealer that took delivery.

    Now our future pres is all about legislation to allow local police access to the same data base as the feds. Sound like local tracking, but you know law enforcement wouldn't misuse any powers granted to them. (Some are good some aren't. Some are on our side and some want all the guns taken away)

    What I do on a local legal sale is ask for a form of ID and we both sign a paper saying the gun make, serial number, date and time of the sale. That way if or when they come looking I am covered. I will not come out with that paper until I'm looking at jail time but at least I can have an all of the sudden memory boost.
     
  18. b12

    b12 Well-Known Member

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    Boys you should her about this old lady that held an intruder to the floor by gun point while she was calling the cops. It was on local TV in SouthBend Indiana news 1/6/09 a.m. There is a recording of the call to 911 and an interview after the arrest. B12
     
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