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Trades have been ruined by unskilled labor

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by chuckles, Feb 20, 2008.

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  1. chuckles

    chuckles Member

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    Thats the way things are today Dave.....and it is going to get worse... so fasten your seatbelt and get used to it.

    Decent wages...????

    You will lower your standard of living or seek a life of crime or Politics...

    regards
     
  2. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Dave- I agree with your point that workers should be paid a "fair wage", but I have some difficulty figuring out what a fair wage is. From the workers standpoint, a fair wage is one that would allow them to live at the level they want. From an employers viewpoint, it would be a wage adequate to keep the employee and have the employee produce enough so that the business can earn a fair return on his work. The primary job of all employees is to make a fair profit for the business. Many workers believe that the employer makes too much money, and many employers believe that they have to pay employees too much money. When both sides are unhappy, trouble looms near by.

    Some employees do not recognize that it costs a business something like $28 per hour to pay a worker $20 an hour. This means that the worker must produce enough for the business to earn a little over $30 per hour profit from the work of the employee earning $20 per hour.

    I believe, or at least I want to believe, that most employers want to be fair to their workers. The problem is determining what is fair for both sides.

    Pat Ireland
     
  3. chuckles

    chuckles Member

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    Pat, big business could care less about their employees, it is only the Unions that offer protection from greedy management....

    Millions of Jobs have been lost across the last 10 years to China, India, Mexico, Indonesia, Malaysia, Korea, etc, etc...

    all for one reason...Profits, Increased profits.....

    The bad guy in all of this is our US Government because they do absolutely nothing to protect our American Manufacturing base, our jobs, our Standard of Living...

    Regards
     
  4. 27 yrdz

    27 yrdz TS Member

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    I agree the unskilled labor has hurt the tades , but it's not completely for the reasons above. I am a contractor also and have been in the business since I started working for my dad at the tender age of 14, (47 now) ..... I've seen many of the things stated here also, but the biggest things I've found to be true as far as changes in the business are these.....

    1. The workforce pool is shrinking due to an inability to find young men that are willing to work. They have been handed everything that they have ever wanted by Mom and Dad and have not learned the age old rule of if you want something you have to get out of bed and work for the money to acquire it. Too many young men want to start their life with the same things (new truck or car, new home, boats, toys, hobbies) that it took Dad 20 years to acquire. We've been through countless of them and they won't show up on time, if at all .......work 2 days and then take one off without even calling and there you are needing to get work done that you had planned out for that day and no worker/s.

    2. A young man gets a job learning a trade from you and after about 1 year of paying him more than he is worth at the time to invest in a good future employee, he begins to believe he is ready to go into business for himself and there your investment goes and 6 months later they fail because they didn't have the experience to make it on their own. It also amazes me how many of them that call for a job nowadays do not have a drivers license ........amazing .....and they wonder why you aren't willing to swing by and pick them up ......that has become the first thing I ask them anymore ...no license ? .....no thanks ....

    I have never hired any mexicans ( legal or illeagal) , but I have a couple of friends that have and all they say about it is

    " they show up .....they work their asses off" .......

    Bottom Line ? .......kids as a whole in this country are not raised with good work ethics anymore and it is starting to show up in the adult workforce now .......
     
  5. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Copper- Your first sentence is both accurate and concise.

    chuckles- I disagree with your first sentence and I believe the idea represented in that statement is one of the great problems we have. If we have a workers v. employers situation, neither side will win.

    Please explain- in the South Union representation of workers is rather low and the overall standard of living of the non Union Southern workers seems to be higher than the standard of living of the Union represented Northern workers. In many of the Northern manufacturing facilities, job security is a major issue. In my area, it is a non issue. The manufacturing plants that are not now hiring will be in a month or so. We need workers in my area. Would you consider moving?

    Pat Ireland

    Pat Ireland
     
  6. ArmyMechanic

    ArmyMechanic Member

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    I have to add something, Im not old by any means and always belived that i should give a good days work for a good days pay, meaning I have always tried to give my boss the best I could. I get that he owns the business and its his money on the line, not mine. You cannot fault the owner of a business for trying to earn more for his money.

    that being said, I can honestly say that from my experience dealing with people in the military (primarily reservists) the pool of "quality" workers we have in this country under the age of 30 is really bad. these kids do not want to work, they want everything handed to them. My own son is like this much to my dismay and he is learning really fast how hard it is to get ahead in life. (I refuse to give him anything anymore)

    most of these kids (not all) are lacking in education, motivation, and COMMON SENSE!! now give them a computer where they dont have to move or do any physical labor and they excell. Given the fact that the average kid coming into the military these days cannot pass a physical fitness test is quite scarey.

    Just my input. We cant blame everything on immigrants and big government. sometimes we have to blame ourselfs for our kids missfortunes.
     
  7. 27 yrdz

    27 yrdz TS Member

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    ArmyMech, AMEN !! .......the best worker I've had in the last 15 years is my own son ( now 21 ) ......and it's because I got him outta bed at 14 and taught him good work ethics like my father did me .......he has been taught to work for what he's gotten .........I miss him now also , as he's gone back to school for his career in the medical field .......kids these days for the most part do not know how to work nor do they want to .......blame nintendo and microsoft ......and parents who want to be a friend first and good parent second ...kids that aren't raised to appreciate the worth or cost of "things" have been failed in their upbringing .......and it's starting to show ....


    for the last 15 to 20 years we've built too many new homes for very young 20 somethings that wanted the 2500 + sq ft new homes and had mortgage compnaies all too excited and ready to help them have it. 3 years later when they need a new car to go back and forth to work to pay them 1200.00 house payments and 4000.00 a year property taxes and 200.00 = utilities not to mention the everyday living expenses " UH OH !! >...........IN TROUBLE !!" ......instant mortgage company crisis......
     
  8. Capt. Morgan

    Capt. Morgan TS Member

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    "I believe, or at least I want to believe, that most employers want to be fair to their workers. The problem is determining what is fair for both sides."

    Pat, one of my college professors said this to me one day:

    "Being fair doesn't mean giving everyone what they want; it means giving everyone what they need."

    The problem as I have always viewed it lies in differentiating the "wants" from the "needs", not the "fair" from the "unfair".

    Morgan
     
  9. DickG

    DickG TS Member

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    I agree with Chuckles. You're living in a dream world if you believe that American manufacturing jobs are ever coming back. They are where they are for the simple reason that global economic pressures are compelling that American companies must lower their cost structure.

    If you are a manufacturing company, you have remain competitive. In order to do this, you need to control your costs, while maintaining quality. The biggest cost generally is labor. If your cost to manufacture cars in Michigan is much greater than the cost in Canada/Mexico/etc., then you have two choices. Die a slow death, or change.

    In order for an individual to succeed in today's economy, you need to increase your skill level to compete in the world we live in, rather than the one we had 50+ years ago.

    The companies are doing what they need to do in order to survive. Are you?
     
  10. widomaker

    widomaker TS Member

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    I don't have any what trades your talking about but here in NY if you can swing a hammer and your any good at it you make $200.00 a day and thats usually in cash. Most times the workers here won't even turn the key in the truck for less than $25.00 an hour. I worked doing framing roofing and siding for quite a while and my friends still ask me help out at times. Its a good way to make money and growing up in Orange County NY we all worked doing it. As a matter of fact most of the good GC's are so busy they have to turn away work.

    Martin
     
  11. Shooting Jack

    Shooting Jack Active Member

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    Dave, I pretty much agree with what you are saying with one BIG exception. The Mexicans in the area I live in make very a good wage. Most are making $600. to 1000. dollars a week raking and bailing pine straw. The only taxes they pay is sales tax on this salary and send some of it to Mexico to bring more people in. Some work legimately for other people, others go out in the middle of someone else's property and rake the straw and sale it. In other words not only are they not paying taxes but are stealing the straw to sale. I can appreciate someone wanting to do well and have helped quite a few, but not at my expense of paying taxes to support someone else who doesn't. JMO Jackie B.
     
  12. chuckles

    chuckles Member

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    dickg, how are we to compete when you have Eng/Software/Computer/Actuarial/PHD's in India that will work for $10000.00 a year.....and Chinese machinest's working for $4.00 a day...

    Even if we lower our Standard of Living and wage expectations to that of a 3rd world country we still cannot keep up or compete on the educational level....

    Martin, I have a friend that owned a small business and ran 3 Roughing crews, 6 days a week, 52 weeks a year for 6 years.....housing/construction is now so bad in Michigan he had to pull up stakes and moved to SLC,Utah...he is doing ok there but the commute every other weekend is taking its toll....

    regards
     
  13. shannon391

    shannon391 Active Member

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    Some people will not get it, until it affects their job, and it will.
     
  14. ArmyMechanic

    ArmyMechanic Member

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    See there in lies another problem. the laziness of americans and the belive that they are the greatest thing on earth... we arent... we are so far behind in job skills and education/intelligence levels its scarey. What should be the greatest nation in the world is crapping out...lol

    The jobs arent coming back, american workers feel that they should be making top dollar (this includes entry level positions) and most feel its beneath them to work for anything under 20 bucks an hour.

    my own son has alot of these traits. (granted being in the military and away from him all these years isnt his fault. but try to correct that on someon that was raised by a slug- ie his welfare loving mother ITS IMPOSSIBLE)

    the mentality of people in this country needs to change.. we are being left so far behind its mind boggling.
     
  15. halfmile

    halfmile Well-Known Member

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    I have watched these converstions for the last year or so and no one has mentioned the real problem.

    It has to do with trade.

    Any country that consumes more than it produces has to make up the difference somewhere.

    And we consume way more than we produce. We have been making up the difference with debt. Not a wise choice. the Big Boyz like it because they continue making money for their multi million dollar bonuses and stock options. It does not change the fact that more money goes out of the country than comes back in.

    This will result in big problems for our currency. Which means our dollar will buy less, Providing you have earned some.

    The sky began to fall when the trade barriers were blasted down and companies were allowed to outsource for increased profits. (none of which benefited the man in the street.)

    Our country is hollowed out badly by debt, both consumer and government. We are not going to like the next 3-4 years.

    HM



    Moving the office offshore for tax breaks was another nail in the coffin.
     
  16. Bocephas

    Bocephas Well-Known Member

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    Dave,we have the same problem in my area.It's not Mexicans doing the work,it's the Amish.They have a driver haul them to the job site.When the van gets there you will see four or five Amish men get out and four or five of their kids 15-18 get out.They work for about 60% less than the local contractors.They pay no tax and the hospital has to treat them with no pay.They are hard workers.Their quality of work that I have seen is not that good.

    The plant I retired out of is union.One year after I retired the contract came up and the union workers went on strike.The day the workers went on strike the plant locked the gates.The next day about twenty vans showed up with replacement workers (SCABS).The strike lasted almost six months with the company winning.Now the pay is $11.75 per hour with almost no benefits.
    After all the dust settled the CEO received $26.000,000 in pay and stock options.Now they are going after the retired workers health insurance.
    They have took the union to court two times.The judge ruled in favor of the retired workers.Since then the company has appealed and asked for the case to be moved to another state which is not union friendly.

    Only in America.

    Bo
     
  17. chuckles

    chuckles Member

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    Halfmile you say no one has mentioned the real problem...that we are a consumer Nation ie consuming more than producing and that is the real problem...

    well it is essentially good to be a consuming Nation, we just don't have a fair or balanced playing field and that is the problem of our Government essentially not doing their job.

    That is just one piece of the overall dynamic that is ongoing in this New Global Economy....

    in fact most everyone here is hitting on parts and pieces of the problem.

    regards
     
  18. ArmyMechanic

    ArmyMechanic Member

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    I agree that as a nation we do not produce anything of substance anymore... american cars (quality is substandard with the opposition) I only buy american if i can help it.. if i cant what can we do?? but you are completely right we do not produce anything anymore.. Used to be the manufacturing in amercia was Second to NONE... those days are passed.. sad to say.... all this happening and im just retiring from the Army and entering the private sector. Im a tad nervous...lol
     
  19. chuckles

    chuckles Member

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    Armymechanic...what is your MOS, what are your skills...?

    regards
     
  20. Bisi

    Bisi TS Member

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    For the last 30 years or so in this country we have discouraged people from going into the trades or industrial arts. In our schools all they push is college, college, college. To them a degree in basket weaving is more desirable than becoming a machinist, carpenter, heating/air tech, etc.

    Look at our movies or tv. All the beautiful people are lawyers. People who work with their hands are shown greasy, dirty, fat, uncool. We could use a lot more auto techs than lawyers in my opinion. In fact the country would be a whole lot better.

    I also agree with what 27yrdz said. We have made it to where a lot young people don’t have to work. Parents pay for cars, cell phones, give em money to go to movies, snacks. Years ago if you wanted to go to college you had to work to pay for it. Now get a government loan, pell grant, have parents pay for it.

    I grew up in an area that was becoming a bedroom community. I think almost all the kids in my senior class worked construction , after school, weekends, during the summer. We worked on concrete crews, framing crews, clean up, painting crews, brick crews. I think about half of the people I went to school with became contractors. I can ask anyone of them when the last time they had a high school or college student work for them and the reply will be - it’s been years. Kids won’t or don’t have to work. Not construction anyway. They’ll work in a sports bar where they can watch sports. I stopped by a new sports bar down the street they other day. 90% of the waiters there were guys in their 20’s. I was thinking how come you guys aren’t out pouring crete. Leave this work to good looking women. I’m not going back.

    Importing illegal’s or Mexicans isn’t the answer either. The kids of these illegal’s aren’t going to want to work either. They are going to go to schools where they will be told it is demeaning to do manual labor. Ask people in Texas, AZ. They will tell you that 2nd generation of the illegal’s won’t work, just like the native borne Americans won’t.

    We need to stop giving people things and make em work.
     
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