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Torture????

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by Earl4140, Dec 10, 2007.

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  1. Earl4140

    Earl4140 TS Member

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    O/T Torture????

    No torture, no need to destroy videotapes. USA Today.
    It's difficult not to have conflicting reactions to the revelation that the CIA destroyed videotapes it had made of its operatives using harsh techniques to interrogate al-Qaeda detainees in 2002.

    Had the tapes ever gotten out, they might have made the Abu Ghraib prison photos look tame. Imagine the propaganda value Osama bin Laden could reap from video of Arabs struggling in pain as Americans subjected them to waterboarding or other torture. The fact that the prisoner might have been a murderous thug would be lost in the revulsion and condemnation of the United States for barbarism.

    Nevertheless, that hardly excuses the CIA for destroying the evidence.The agency appears to have erred four times: First in using the controversial techniques; second in being foolish enough to tape the exercise; third in hiding the tapes from the 9/11 Commission; and finally in destroying the tapes despite explicit warnings not to do so from Congress, the Justice Department and the White House. Spy agencies don't get to write their own laws.

    The reason CIA Director Michael Hayden cited for the agency's decision — to protect operatives' identities — seems dubious at best. The CIA has all manner of records that identify officers and doesn't destroy them.

    All of this more than justifies the investigations that are getting underway. The Justice Department, Congress and the CIA inspector general have all begun inquiries into whether the CIA is guilty of crimes such as obstruction of justice. But it's also important to handle those probes in a way that avoids adding to the litany of mistakes.

    Media attention will inevitably be intense until the facts are established. That's reason for deliberate speed because, like Abu Ghraib, the scandal will be destructive. Appointing a special prosecutor, as Sen. Joseph Biden, D-Del., suggested Sunday, would achieve the opposite end, unnecessarily bloating the process.

    It's also important to remember that the original sin was the torture itself, not the tapes or their destruction.

    Hayden, who was not in charge when the tapes were destroyed, argues that the interrogations produced vital information. So does President Bush. But at the very least, the CIA's decision to destroy the tapes, despite obvious risk, argues that the potential damage exceeded any gain.

    Front-line military officers, including the top U.S. commander in Iraq, Gen. David Petraeus, have repeatedly sided with those who say torture is counterproductive. They say the methods spelled out by the Army's manual on interrogation — which excludes waterboarding and the like — produce all the information they need. The White House should drop its opposition to a new bill that would impose those rules on the CIA.

    Had the CIA stuck to the manual, it probably would have gotten the information it needed and avoided this distracting inquiry. Had there been no torture, there would have been no need to destroy the tapes.

    Posted at 12:22 AM/ET, December 10, 2007 Earl Hamman
     
  2. lumper

    lumper TS Member

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    If the CIA and other government agencies right now would be run and handled as they were in the past ... there would have been no tapes to begin with and we wouldn't have even known about any prisoners in the first place along with our forces having even more information than what we were originally trying to find.
     
  3. Setterman

    Setterman Well-Known Member

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    If you want to win a war, you have to fight it like a war. I suppose the enemy tickles our people for info?
    I for one am tired of all this pussy crap. We should fight this thing like a war and let them know we mean business. If we fought like this during WWII, we'd all be speaking Japaneze or German.
     
  4. lumper

    lumper TS Member

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    The first problem that should be taken care of is curtail the access the media has to anything and everything that happens.
     
  5. thespan

    thespan TS Member

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    Setter,

    I am with you on this one.

    Peter Greenspan
     
  6. Bocephas

    Bocephas Well-Known Member

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    War is War to #ell with the politics and the news people.
    If you fight a war and want to look like the good guy,you are going to lose.


    Bo
     
  7. halfmile

    halfmile Well-Known Member

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    Lots of secret stuff happened during WW2. The public just learned the light stuff, like the Japanese interment, etc.

    But I have to say there are 2 former POW camps in my neck of the woods, and enemy soldiers here had it nicer than our boys there.

    Remember, history books are written by the winners.

    HM
     
  8. chuckles

    chuckles Member

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    The information that certain tapes of CIA interrorgation practices were destroyed is essentially a Disinformation move by our CIA...

    Rumor is that certain liberal leftwing zealots like in Pelosi, Reid, etc were close to demanding an investigation into CIA tactics and the CIA simply made a Pre emptive move...

    There are presently very strong and influential persons in the Left wing, Liberal wings of the Democratic Party that are trying to tear down our CIA and Special Ops groups in our Govt....they feel that these groups have become Rogue and operate outside the control of the Democratic Congress....

    regards
     
  9. grammie

    grammie TS Member

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    Lumper has it right gentlemen!!!!!

    If the CIA worked like it used too,,,there would never have been any evidence that anybody but Lee Harvey Oswald killed Kennedy...........there would have been no faked documents or pictures that led us to attack the wrong country!!!

    Both of these little things hidden from the press and the citizens of this country led to a war,,,,,More things need to be kept from us,,,,more blind sheep are needed.........More truths need to be kept from us,,,,so when the horn is blown,,the sheep come a running..................

    AKA Grammie.........
     
  10. stokinpls

    stokinpls Well-Known Member

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    Toot! Toot! Baaaaaaa! Geeze.
     
  11. pendennis

    pendennis Well-Known Member

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    Since when is waterboarding torture? No permanent physical, or psychological damage is done to the prisoner, other than the feeling of drowning, which we probably have felt at one time or another.

    Now, if someone had hooked up a 12v battery to their 'nads, then we could probably call it torture; if someone had systematically broken their bones, then we could probably call it torture; or if someone had slowly disemboweled them, then we could probably call it torture.

    Waterboarding works because no one can overcome the reflex that simulated drowning brings. Use it on all of them.

    We are walking down the wrong road with being kinder and gentler. These Islamic terrorists are the aggressors. The aggressor sets the rules of engagement. They will never give up their Jihad. Because of the zealousness of their "cause", we need to treat these bast***s with the same humanity that we treated Japanese in the caves of the Pacific islands - napalm and satchel charges.

    Find any other tapes and destroy those too.

    The ultimate question is, do you want your liberty and way of life to survive for your descendants? Make up your mind.

    Dennis
     
  12. incognito

    incognito TS Member

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    flincher,

    You are correct. In a democracy all information must be provided to the people so they can make informed choices concerning how the government should be run. That is why no democracy has ever survived more than a few years. A republic, on the other hand, is what the U.S. is. In a republic we elect a president, senators, and representatives to run the government for us. In a republic, there is no need for people to know everything. That is also why those who understand this say that liberals want to kill our nation. If liberals get their way and force all information to be published, the U.S. will quickly die, as all democracies of the past have.
     
  13. Brian in Oregon

    Brian in Oregon Well-Known Member

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    The issue of torture side, the CIA was dumb as a box of rocks for making videotapes. Especially since there are liberal Vietcongressmen and women who would love to make those tapes public, if for no other reason that to tear down America some more.
     
  14. alfermann66

    alfermann66 Member

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    "Nevertheless, that hardly excuses the CIA for destroying the evidence." Information is evidence only when judication is in progress. There was none in progress when the tapes were reportedly destroyed.

    Buz
     
  15. BILL GRILL

    BILL GRILL Well-Known Member

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    WAR= NO RULES. WIN AT ALL COSTS.
     
  16. jimbob

    jimbob TS Member

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    When the ragheads killed 3000 of our own, all bets are off. Torture them until we get what we need and send them to hell.

    I could care less about the tapes. I want the CIA to do what it takes to put the fear of satan in them.
     
  17. Setterman

    Setterman Well-Known Member

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    The CIA says they told the oversight committee they were taping the interrogations and later destroy them. Some Lib. congressmen say they didn't get the memo. It is a political, partisan move. Party before country.

    When a person positions himself to be a part of killing me, my son or daughter, directly or indirectly, he has compromised his safety.
     
  18. FarmerD

    FarmerD TS Member

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    Interesting, if it were them instead of us there would be be-headings instead of water board harassment. Kill them all and let God sort it out. Ben
     
  19. Jon Reitz

    Jon Reitz Well-Known Member

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    Pelosi and the other pussys need to stay the hell out of the way of the defense of this country. If they want to be involved in diplomacy and the "kinder-gentler" approach to handling things they could deploy TDY to France. That BS is not what we need. Shut of the GD cameras, restrict the access, and do what you have to do to get what you need. Always remember 9/11.

    CSM Jon Reitz (Ret.)
     
  20. Hipshot 3

    Hipshot 3 TS Member

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    Torture?.....You want to know what torture is?.....Its missing the last target with a 300 straight going! That's torture!
     
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