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Top single or unsigle ??????

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by biggun4fun, Dec 21, 2008.

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  1. biggun4fun

    biggun4fun TS Member

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    I,m wondering which is the better of the two and why? Also which one is the most seen on a trap feild?
     
  2. BDodd

    BDodd TS Member

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    The better of the two is easy to determine - it's the one that works best for you. Truly a subjective situation.....breakemall....Bob Dodd
     
  3. biggun4fun

    biggun4fun TS Member

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    I was thinking it might be a recoil difference or else why even bother to offer a choice?
     
  4. bigdogtx

    bigdogtx Well-Known Member

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    Just for more consideration,,,,don't forget the mid-single.....:D
     
  5. BDodd

    BDodd TS Member

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    Well, I've had both, the current gun is a mid-single and, frankly, I got used to all of them within a box of shells. But others hate one for the other and vice versa. The standard mantra is that the lower the barrel, the less muzzle jump which can be related to felt recoil and you should be able to see the bird faster without a barrel just under your vision. Others find the low barrel is distracting and see no gain in visibility or less muzzle or recoil sensations. That's why I say you simply must give them a try and see for yourself. Me? Never could tell one from the others for visibility, muzzle rise, recoil, and so on BUT the low ones do look cool, eh?.....breakemall....Bob Dodd
     
  6. cunninmp

    cunninmp Member

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    I prefer the Unsingle as it places the recoil closer to the center of your shoulder.
    IE: That's why we normally shoot the bottom barrel first on an over and under.
    Just my opinion!!
    Mike C.
    Groveland, CA
     
  7. Bob Schultz

    Bob Schultz Well-Known Member Supporting Vendor

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    Biggun4fun,

    Interesting question ... although there are as many opinions as there are trapshooters, there are some specific differences. Which, when choosing the trap gun for you can be importent ... specificly for you.

    The first unsingles were O/U shotguns with the top barrel partially removed and tall rib pickets soldered on to the lower barrel to keep the rib at the right height. Al Ljutic made one of the first ones out of a Browning back in the '50s and won the Nevada (I think?) state singles with it. The problem was the barrel was too short and too light. Lots of work went into making it shoot resonably well.

    Jumping forward to the 1980's Krieghoff came out with the K-80 unsingle combo and it was a hot number for a lot of years, Perazzi followed suit and Beretta and so on. Having the POI adjustable on the single was a huge step in seeing higher scores in handicap shooting. However, some folks did not like the "look" of the high unsingle rib, particularly if you shot off the end of the barrel with a M12 or similar low rib gun. The MX-10 Perazzi with the adjustable rib on a top single entered the picture. It was not too big a leap of technology for some bright spark to realize the adjustable rib could be put on the O/U as well and the top-single/O/U was introduced.

    Now the current trend is the high shooting adjustable combos like the K-80 Trap Special, Perazzi MX-2000 RS and the Caesar Guerini combos. Some are availavble with the top single others not.

    Whether the lower recoil argument for the unsingle holds water or not is fairly academic. Most modern guns are designed to minimize recoil and the actual felt difference is hardly a deal breaker when making the choice. Getting the gun to fit you properly will do more to reduce felt recoil.

    Now that you have read all this stuff and I've told you a lot more than you asked for ...shoot both types of guns and see which works best for you. Try and be critical with your assesment of how the gun moves to the target, and how you "see" the target in comparison with your current gun and the new one. Only you can make the choice. Best of luck and break em' all.

    Bob Schultz
     
  8. Chango2

    Chango2 Active Member

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    I thought the unsingle and high rib allowed for a more upright shooting position particularly for those with a long neck. Another myth?
     
  9. Chango2

    Chango2 Active Member

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    I also heard that the unsingle is more sensitive to gun cant; i.e., cant the gun, the error is magnified with an unsingle. Another myth?
     
  10. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    The axis of the lower barrel of an unsingle is slightly closer to the irregular surface of the ground. This variation (S squared) in the surface can be measured as S squared = {(x-Xbar) squared / n-1. The square root of S squared would then = 1 standard deviation from the mean and +-1SD would account for 68% of the area under the curve of the variation.

    This indicates that the unsingle would be slightly better from posts one and two, equal to the top single on post three and slightly inferior on posts 4 and 5.

    Pat Ireland
     
  11. jimrich60

    jimrich60 Member

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    chango2:

    A high rib (higher than "normal") does help many with a more upright posture. I like them for this reason. However, not all unsingles have a "high" rib. Many just look like they are high since the space where the upper bbl would be is empty, but in reality, the actual height of the rib is the same as it would be if the upper bbl was there. Particularly true of combos-they are often designed so that the height of the rib is the same for both sets of bbls, so checking the rib height of the o/u bbls gives you a good idea of the actual height of the unsingle.
     
  12. zzt

    zzt Well-Known Member

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    Well, I'll throw my 2 cents in as well.

    First, take standard rib height guns such as an MX-15 unsingle and an MX-8 top single. Same overall rib heights, but an amazing amount od difference in perceived recoil. The TS rotates upwards to a much greater degree when fired.

    I prefer to shoot an unsingle, becasue I can pick up the target faster. I don't shoot off the end of the barrel, and the top barrel of my 2000RS blocks some of my field of view, whereas the unsingle does not. Said another way, I can "see" around the unsingle, but not the O/U.
     
  13. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Don, did you just say in a polite way that I am full of fertilizer? If so, after reading my post, I agree. But, the Devil made me do it. I take no responsibility.

    Pat Ireland
     
  14. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

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    Pat,

    Please seek help, we are all worried about you. HMB
     
  15. Jeff P

    Jeff P Well-Known Member

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    Pat...clearly, there's an error in your calculation...the trap field being symetrical, the un will be much better from post 1, slightly better from 2, equivalent on 3, slightly better from 4 and much better from 5.

    Although I think I detected that you dropped a negative sign in your work, so really, if that's the case, the un will be much worse from 1, a little worse from 2, equivalent from 3, a little worse from post 4 and much worse from 5.

    sorry to have to correct you.

    Jeff P
     
  16. BDodd

    BDodd TS Member

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    cp, I'd consider that conclusion valid if you could compare top and bottom of the same gun instead of two different ones. No two are completely alike. Take no insult as none was intended.....breakemall....Bob Dodd
     
  17. Chango2

    Chango2 Active Member

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    I get it now; if the gun weights 10 lbs. or more and shoots where you look, nothing else matters...the weight mitigates against obnoxious levels of perceived recoil and shooting where you look gives the shooter a fair chance...to shoot where you look; now, look at the target; that's the hard part.
     
  18. Gary Waalkes

    Gary Waalkes Well-Known Member

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    Around here I see lots of high end top singles (and why not, MD is the home of Silver Seitz). So if you think about it, you will see that gun makers like Seitz, Ljutic, Alferman, Bowen, and DeVault do not make an "unsingle". Further, considering how many shooters use guns like TM-1, 90T, Model 12, 870, BT, 1100, 390, etc, I would say that the unsingle guns are out numbered by a large margin.

    Meanwhile, a gentleman named Keith Ditto shoots all three games with an MX-8 over/under and his averages are amongst the best in the country (and he is not a full time shooter).
     
  19. smifshot

    smifshot TS Member

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    It amazes me that none of the posters here have adressed the issues which matter. Its obvious the original poster is looking for help in choosing his next trap gun. Noone has mentioned the unsingle will serve him much better due to the barrel is closer to the shooting surface therefore allowing him to swing the barrel in a more-even manner without dealing with the intergral torque associated with top singles and over and unders. This mentioned torque, seldom realized by. the 20 to 25 yard shooter, in a bitter enemy. For a right hander this 32 degree downward "pitch" for lack of a bigger word, will eliminate the dreaded "neck-twist" associated with hard angles from stations 1 and 2. Having good control of a properly torqued barrel can result in almost eliminating shooting under the hard lefts. Handing a 9 1/2 pound trap gun is hard enough when "all is right", especially in the 200 target events. Conversley. a top single with its higher barrel, usually lighter by the norm, has almost 41 degrees of torque. This is especially true when shooting at a club where the shot has been mined in the last six years. Same is true if the shooter is using reloads which contain RedDot powder. Just as RedDot often fails for operate a Beretta 391 properely, its burning rate is such to add unneeded and unwanted torgue to the barrell.....especially if those shells contain an "offbrand" wad of some sort. Many non brand name wads cause the shot (ejecta) to spin in a clockwise motion thus adding about the same ammount of torque produced by a top single. Note also the shooter should use the very hardest shot to be found with said unsingle. Surely some of the above posters remember the mathmatics of their high school years..ie. the angle of the dangle is LESS when the hypotinuse of the triangle is aligned with the bore axis of the UNsingle barrel.
    I hope the original poster will study long, not wrong, and pick a well made unsingle. His scores will increase quickly and he should almost never fail to see and break every hard left target from posts one and two. Regards. Smoker Stubbs.
     
  20. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Gary Waalkes - The terms top single and unsingle apply to combo guns or at least guns that can shoot an over under configuration.

    Pat Ireland
     
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