1. Attention: We have put together a thread with tips and a tutorial video to help with using the new software. Please take a moment to check out the thread here: Trapshooters.com Tutorial & Help Video.
    Dismiss Notice

Tightgroup and Bloopers

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by oleolliedawg, Sep 29, 2009.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. oleolliedawg

    oleolliedawg Banned User Banned TS Supporters

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    10,124
    Location:
    Northampton PA
    Here's one for you fellow reloading pros. I've been trying to develop a load using Hogdon Tightgroup for the last month or two. Been loading 16.4grs. in a Remington hull with Remington primers and 1 1/8oz. shot I've tried several wads but settled on Remington TGT's and Winchester 12 SL's as the powder is very low volume and I get great crimps. Checked powder drops dozens of times and all are right on. This load bloops regularly. All wads check out with no broken corners from a bad wad finger.

    I've given up on this one today. The question is why!!
     
  2. Andy44

    Andy44 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    1,262
    I've had great results using a bit more TiteGroup. Maybe it likes to be pushed to 1200~1235 fps better than what you are trying. Are you getting GOOD primer hits?

    AndyH ;-)
     
  3. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    9,436
    Try a Winchester Primer. HMB
     
  4. oleolliedawg

    oleolliedawg Banned User Banned TS Supporters

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    10,124
    Location:
    Northampton PA
    Andy H, primer hits are great. You may be on to something though. I get the impression that wad seating on the powder may be an issue. I've even increased the wad pressure more and I believe I'm now getting even more bloopers-the opposite of what I'd think!!
     
  5. oleolliedawg

    oleolliedawg Banned User Banned TS Supporters

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    10,124
    Location:
    Northampton PA
    HMB, good thought and one I haven't tried. I was under the impression that such a small volume of powder would easily be ignited by even a mild Remington primer but this might not be the case and Tightgroup may ignite hard!!
     
  6. mx2005

    mx2005 TS Member

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2008
    Messages:
    430
    oleolliedawg I use titegroup and nothing else I load 1145fps load lite 7.5 with TGT-12 wad Rem STS209 primer REM hull 16.1 - 16.3 grains of titegroup shoot that load from the 16yds line to the 30 + yd line for annies and don't have a problem with any bloopers. The only thing I can say that I found is that in the winter I had a lot of static electricity in my basement and had to jump to the next bushing size up to get the same powder charge as in the summer months I love this load and it works I am very happy with this. Pat.k.
     
  7. grunt

    grunt TS Supporters TS Supporters

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    5,922
    Location:
    Thousand Oaks Ca
    Don't think the Remington primer is the problem. You may need to make sure your wad is set on the powder eliminating the air pocket.
     
  8. oleolliedawg

    oleolliedawg Banned User Banned TS Supporters

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    10,124
    Location:
    Northampton PA
    Grunt, good thought. I've taken apart dozens of these searching for answers. What I've found is some powder is firmly packed while in others it's loose after wad removal. Unfortunately, it seems incresing the wad pressure has the opposite effect-more bloopers. I'm almost ready to believe it may be a bad batch of powder which I've never experienced in 45 years of reloading!!
     
  9. ou.3200

    ou.3200 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    1,491
    I too had difficulty with bloopers using Titegroup and Green Dusters loading at about 1200 fps. I think the spherical powder is a little harder to ignite and blame the Fiocchi primers I was using at the time for the bloopers although the .745 overbore in the barrel could have something to do with it
     
  10. oleolliedawg

    oleolliedawg Banned User Banned TS Supporters

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    10,124
    Location:
    Northampton PA
    3200, my friends with overbored barrels have found Green Duster wads are a best choice for good performance in those barrels. One shooter I know even uses them in a Stan Baker big bore barrel in his 3200 without bloopers-unlike other wads!!
     
  11. k-gunguy

    k-gunguy Member

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2006
    Messages:
    307
    I have used Titegroup 17.2grains,Tgt12 wads,Sts or Gunclubs. Have great successs with this load. I also use sts primers only. But I must say I really like it for Caps,18.3 with Tgt12s, great long yardage load.
    Gaz
     
  12. Ahab

    Ahab Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    3,651
    Have you tried a hotter primer like a Fed 209A or a CCi 209M?
     
  13. oleolliedawg

    oleolliedawg Banned User Banned TS Supporters

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    10,124
    Location:
    Northampton PA
    Ahab, Tightgroup loading data doesn't allow any primer hotter than a Winchester 209!!
     
  14. WesleyB

    WesleyB Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2007
    Messages:
    1,479
    I think grunt is correct.... its the wad. Not seating correctly or cocked alittle on the powdercup. I had that happen before with some other wad than what you are using. Those shells that were bloopers where the ones that I had to put more pressure on to get them into the mouth of the hull. If I used a hull that was opened wide naturally before the wad fingers got there I never had a problem... a hull that had the folds very closed up before the wad finger, those where the hulls that would have the most trouble getting the wad into straight... thus cocking it over on the bottom and the cup not sitting squarely on the powder to make a good seal.

    My 2 cents worth.

    WesleyB
     
  15. ou.3200

    ou.3200 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    1,491
    I totally agree that Green Dusters are solid performers in overbored barrels as are Blue Dusters. I place the blame on the Fiocchi primers not properly igniting the powder or not enough pressure being generated with Titegroup for the overbored barrel even with the Green Duster wad. I have not tried any other primers as I only bought a small amount of the Titegroup to try it
     
  16. oleolliedawg

    oleolliedawg Banned User Banned TS Supporters

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    10,124
    Location:
    Northampton PA
    Nice thought Wes but the cases were 1x fired STS hulls. I examined dozens of wads I retreived from the shells I cut open and all were nice and straight. I may try some in a barrel that's a little tighter and see if a narrower bore diameter might be the answer!!
     
  17. BryceNZ

    BryceNZ TS Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2009
    Messages:
    56
    Oleolliedawg

    Like others have said I'd try a slightly hotter primer.

    I don't load shot shells any more but have loaded accuracy rifle loads for years. Occasionally odd things can happen when you pack in more powder than a primer can cope with. I had a situation with a benchrest rifle, one bullet, one powder, two primers and two different accurate loads about 1.2 grains apart. The lighter load was a case full to the base of the bullet of powder (6mm PPC with N133) and would shoot great with either primer. The other load was a compressed load needing a drop tube to get the powder in or it would spill out the neck of the case. It shot great with the hotter primer but just wouldn't tune with the milder primer. The extra 1.2 grains of powder would make no practical difference in terms of proper ignition, I am sure it was the packing of the powder that caused the ignition problem.

    It is also possible to get less velocity with more powder for a similar reason, more powder than the primer can efficiently cope with.

    I would not be surprised if the same was happening for you. The primer may already be borderline for ignition with that powder and component selection and adding more wad pressure is compressing the powder thus inhibiting the flame front from the primer from enveloping the powder completely enough and fast enough for full and proper ignition.

    If that was the case colder temperatures could make the situation worse.

    With shot shell loads there is very little resistance (only the crimp and the shot weight) to the wad and shot moving down the barrel so if the powder is not ignited well quickly the powder will never ignite satisfactorily at all. Shot shell loads, as I am sure you are aware, rely on a firm crimp closure and a big primer flame relative to the small amount of powder to get the ignition happening fast enough for proper performance.

    A hotter primer could very logically be the answer.

    Bryce
     
  18. short shucker

    short shucker TS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    3,939
    'dawg,

    I've loaded tightgroup down in the area you're describing with a 1 oz charge, using a tgt-12 wad, and had zero bloopers in 3,000 rounds loaded. It didn't make any difference if the barrel was a .729 or a .750.

    These shells were loaded using a Winchester 209 primer so I could tell what they were at a glance (all I reload is gold STS hulls as I have a endless supply of once fired hulls that I get for free).

    I load with very little wad pressure and make sure that no static is present when reloading with Titegroup. That powder is so dense that it doesn't take much to get inconsistant loads. I'm also very carful to have a nice smooth continuous motion on my loader. I generally have about a .1 deviation in powder charge weight according to my Dillon scales.

    BTW, I started using those bright green DownRange wads for this load and find that they work better than the TGT's or the SL's.

    ss
     
  19. oleolliedawg

    oleolliedawg Banned User Banned TS Supporters

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    10,124
    Location:
    Northampton PA
    Bryce, you may have nailed it. Today was the coldest day I shot those loads thus far and it was ugly. I'd agree the harder I compress that powder the poorer the results!!
     
  20. BryceNZ

    BryceNZ TS Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2009
    Messages:
    56
    A hotter primer sure makes sense from everything you have said.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.