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tightening patterns the easy way

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by Dr.Longshot, Apr 30, 2013.

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  1. Dr.Longshot

    Dr.Longshot Banned Banned

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    Neil won't believe you.

    GB
    DLS
     
  2. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

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    Charts and graphs are on the way. HMB
     
  3. GW22

    GW22 Active Member

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    If you guys would actually read and attempt to comprehend what Neil tries to teach you, you might actually learn something.

    -Gary
     
  4. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

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    Are you sure? HMB
     
  5. Dr.Longshot

    Dr.Longshot Banned Banned

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    What Neil doesan't know he tries to baffle you w/graphs and charts, and he uses a field gun Bbl w/3"inch chambers in his Beretta Auto tests.

    A true trap Bbl w 2 3/4 "inch chambers and a .735 Bore Factory Bbl, like K-80. Blaser, Caesar Guerini is the ultimate Barrell size, Then there is the Fully tapered Bbl w/ 2 3/4 ich Chambers in the FABARMSXLR5 w/ Long Choke tubes that really perform at the pattern Board.

    Different Bbls by Different Mfgrs throw different patterns, some looser and some tighter, I had a XLR5 but did not like the stock design in the palm grip area, it was not comfortable.

    Neil woks hard at the pattern board and uses a computer program for his charts, but remember this you are not shooting a Computerized Trapgun.

    There is a reason I am on my 5th CG!! It is Fit and Patterns and Only out of the box trapgun that shoots high enough for me @120%. In the $4-5000.00 Dollar price range w/factory release trigger.

    Barrells made on a Monday are like Cars built on a Monday, lots of defects.

    I pattern my guns @ 38yards w/my loads and I will never post another Pattern and get called basically a Liar by Neil. Gun fit is absolutely necessary for top performance w/a top performing Trapgun.

    And you absolutely have to pattern a Trapgun off a rest w/your sight picture
    on a pattern board with the bead at the bottom of the 3"inch Black Circle.

    This will tell you if the gun is shooting on center and at your shooting height

    I use a 20"inch target shooting area, I want to put that target in my 20"inch pattern, and I want a dense 20"inch circle 20-24 inches high to the center of my pattern.

    There are only 10% or less of shooters that shoot a Trapgun that high.

    Money Maker will tell you I have one of the highest shooting ribs that they build to shoot to MY SPECS.

    Gary Bryant
    Dr.longshot
     
  6. bigbore613

    bigbore613 Active Member

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    Are you a 27 yard shooter? Jeff
     
  7. KENENT1

    KENENT1 Active Member

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    Dr. if you only shoot factory guns, what would Moneymaker know about your ribs??

    you contradict yourself.


    tony
     
  8. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    C.E., there is one shred of your opening post that is probably true. It's this:

    "Shoot the 3 Dram load on the 40 yard pattern board. Pattern looks so-so. OK, now shoot the 2&3/4 Dram load on the board. You'll see that it looks a lot better."

    It _will_ look a lot better. But not because it _is_ better, but rather that you can't tell anything at all about patterns by looking at them. They are all equivocal and so you see what you expect to see and if you don't know better, you _will_ think it looks better. But it isn't better; in the long run it is just the same. That's because that "gun club ballistics" nonsense you are posting is all wet.

    The link above lays out the facts.

    The only thing I would add is that I did find Andrew Jones' book "Sporting Shotgun Performance" and I found had recalled it correctly. In Chapter 10, "Effect of velocity on the spread of the pattern,"he compared Hull DTL300 shells (1116 fps) with Hull Sovereign (1388 fps) shells and the patterns were not different.

    In other words, the easy way to tighten patterns you promote, C.E., does not work.

    Neil
     
  9. JACK

    JACK Well-Known Member Supporting Vendor

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    Wow! Thanks Neil. Adn considering that velocity increases energy, and energy has a greater effect on target breakage, I'm shooting big bullets this year from yardage.

    Great stuff.
     
  10. scott calhoun

    scott calhoun Well-Known Member

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    I'm missing something . . . Dr. Longshot has informed us all about what is necessary to have a good pattern (and presumably shoot good scores, after all nobody buys a gun just to shoot good patterns). Yet the same guys stands on the 22-yard line and can't average above the Zone breakpoint for reductions. There must be some other secret?

    I took a Phil Kiner clinic my first year of shooting, and after using the video camera to prove that most people standing behind you can't tell where you are shooting, he told us to always be wary of advice from "D-20-D All Americans". I think of that often, mostly when reading a post by Dr. Longshot.

    Scott
     
  11. dimapower

    dimapower Member

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    I love this site. Would be great for a graduate psychology class, assessing personality types on internet forums.


    Some key words for the users on trapshooters.com


    - Narcissistic

    - Illusory correlation

    - Anecdotes


    All in fun.
     
  12. joe kuhn

    joe kuhn Furry Lives Matter TS Supporters

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    "...you can't tell anything at all about patterns by looking at them. They are all equivocal and so you see what you expect to see and if you don't know better, you _will_ think it looks better. But it isn't better; in the long run it is just the same."

    The human aspect of this is far more interesting the the shooting aspect.
     
  13. Mac55555mn

    Mac55555mn TS Member

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    Could not have said it better myself Joe
     
  14. wayneo

    wayneo Active Member

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    The easiest way to tighten a pattern.........Put in a tighter choke????

    Wayne
     
  15. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Wayne, are you claiming that changing the choke is easier than counting 9000 pellet-holes?

    Neil
     
  16. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Hey, C.E, what ever happened to those recent Model 12 posts of yours? You remember, "!00 yards Wild Turkey Gun F/S"

    "There was this old boy in NW Missouri who would roll geese at 100 yards in front of witnesses who would always say, "I bet you can't do that again," at which time he would do it again.

    One time I was out in his canoe with him and he handed me that gun and told me to shoot that lilly pad over there. Only one I saw was 100 yards off but he confirmed, yes, that's the one. I shot it sitting in the canoe and the gun kicked like a mule and the pattern looked the size of a basketball on the water. Yes, I know, it doesn't seem possible.

    The gun was a Model 12 solid ribbed 20 (yes,twenty) gauge. Now you can't shoot lead any more. . ."

    And you say _I'm_ full of horse manure?

    Neil
     
  17. Brady509

    Brady509 Well-Known Member

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    I've never patterned a shell and frankly is a bunch of bs.

    There is never a whole in the middle of your pattern.

    Shot 100 straight's in both events.

    Hell last 99 I shot was with a 1971 monobloc beretta. With the cheapest reloads I.could load.

    Shoot and shoot and shoot some more.

    Brady
     
  18. morepowder

    morepowder TS Member

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    So lets take the worst case scenario, square shot. Yes square shot. Now you tell me square shot will not spread more if the speed is increased. So we must be using perfectly round shot in a vacuum to not spread. Physics do not add up. Shot is not perfectly round and we do not have a vacuum.
     
  19. Bob Schultz

    Bob Schultz Well-Known Member Supporting Vendor

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    Back when I had a lot more time on my hands... a good friend of mine and I spent way too much time patterning loads. We shot hundreds of patterns with dozens of loads using Lawrence Magnum 7.5 & 8 shot. We counted every darn hole!

    Our conclusions were pretty much the same as Neil Winston's. Speed has little effect on patterns when using the same recipe only more powder....like going from 1165fps to 1200fps. Different powder/shot/gun combinations produce different patterns. Most of the common loads with typical components shoot decent patterns and occasionally one will stand out as better or worse.

    Factory shells of premium quality tend to all pattern well. Test them in your gun to find out what works best. Some guns shoot better than others...no idea why. Keep the one that shoots best..sell the other ones to your friends. ( Not really...) Some guns shoot 7.5's better than 8's. Not a clue why this happens either.

    Spend more time shooting targets than holes in pattern paper and you will notice an increase in your scores. Don't think too much...
     
  20. mpenley

    mpenley TS Member

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    Many years age an Ol' duck guy and trapshooter stood next to me quietly while I had "Yet Another Discussion" with others regarding loads, powders and such. He glanced from under his hat and said.... "no matter the load you use... You are STILL required to be ON the damn Target" and walked out to the range. I like low pressure 1 to 1 1/8 chilled Round shot. High Pressures... look at reclaimed oval and square shot. Makes good spreader loads though.
     
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