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Three/two hole measurements?

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by kaboom, Aug 28, 2013.

  1. kaboom

    kaboom TS Member

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    I am studying the field layout on page 56 of the rule book and cannot find any reference to three hole and two hole measurements.

    It says: BDEFGHB: AREA OF LEGITIMATE TARGET

    and,

    BEFGB: MOST DESIRABLE AREA IS WHICH TO THROW TARGET

    Might the BDEFGHB be a three hole target or a straight from post one and five?

    Might the BEFGB be a two hole targets or a straight from 1½ and 4½?

    Thanks!
     
  2. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Yes, other than the insignificant change to something slightly better:

    "Might the BEFGB be a two hole targets or a straight from 1 1/3 and 4 2/3?"

    And the first is about the three-hole too.

    The text you are looking for is on page 48 and reads:

    "The 17 degree angle will appear to be a straight-away from a point 3 1/2
    feet to the right of post 1; the 17 degree angle will appear to be a straightaway
    from a point 3 1/2 feet to the left of post 5. This 17 degree angle
    refers to the flight line of the target from the house to 15 or 20 yards out
    and can be used for singles, handicap, and doubles targets."


    Neil
     
  3. 320090T

    320090T Well-Known Member

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    This is interesting. At the CC last week I observed straight-a-ways from 1 and 5 thinking they were two hole targets when actually they were somewhat stronger, but still legal.
     
  4. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    320090T, I think this one covers that today.

    BDEFGHB: AREA OF LEGITIMATE TARGET

    HAP
     
  5. mkstephen

    mkstephen Active Member

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    320090T,


    The straight-away you observed from station one and five were 3 hole targets.


    mkstephen
     
  6. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    320090T. Getting a straight-away from one or five is not evidence for 3-hole targets.

    320090T. Getting a straight-away from one _and_ five on the same trap in the same (relatively calm) wind conditions _is_ evidence for 3-hole targets.

    In the first case, after all, the trap may be poorly centered or throwing a wide right (or left) while the other is OK. That may evidence for careless target setting or just a strong right or left wind which, in the absence of a windage lever on Pat-Traps, is, these days, never accounted for even by the most conscientious trap-setters.

    Neil
     
  7. kaboom

    kaboom TS Member

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    Thanks Neil, that's what I was looking for, just didn't dig far enough.
     
  8. himark

    himark Well-Known Member

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    I want to say that ANYWHERE in that grey area is a legal target. Some clubs will PUSH that inner line and not be in the center. Is this legal? yes. But it makes the clubs that throw on the outer edge look like they are illegal especially when you shot one club last week than the other the next. These targets are not illegal. I would really try to set it up to be in the middle.
     
  9. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Have you ever seen that done, Dave? I haven't.

    By the way, I wrote "windage lever" (which was used every morning at least in WW traps) and not "windage adjustment" which, in my experience, is never used.

    The difference, it seems to me, is just that with the lever the setter can just lift something and move it in the opposite direction to common sense and Shazam!, you are in business.

    Practically, it seems to make no difference, though.

    Neil
     
  10. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    I have often wondered, Dave, how many millions of targets were wasted over 60+ years and thousands of clubs on tens of thousands of mornings moving the windage lever just so:


    "Lever toward Finchford (or lever toward the road), oops, too far - move it back a notch -one more notch - now back the other way again . That's right. Now throw a couple more to check . . .and put it in the two hole."

    when with Pat Traps the lack of any real-life accounting for wind almost anywhere has not made any difference at all, really.

    Neil
     
  11. KennyRay

    KennyRay Active Member

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    Neil:

    Can you explain the reason so many shooters and gun club managers were in favor of narrowing the "Flights & Angles" rule from straightaways from Posts 1 & 5 to the 2-hole setting?

    I suspect the desire for higher scores was the reason as well as an attempt to attract new shooters/members and keep current shooters in the game.

    What was wrong with the straightaway from Posts 1 & 5 rule anyway?

    Vic Reinders once wrote that traps in the 5-hole still did not violate the angle rule as it threw targets within the legitimate target area and that illegal targets could not be thrown the maximum allowable 25 degrees from the desirable (staight away from 1 & 5) because it would hit the inside of the traphouses.

    Thanks,

    Kenny Ray
     
  12. Hauser

    Hauser Member

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    The interesting thing about the years before the change to a 2-hole target was the that none of members of various Executive Committees showed any interest in enforcing what were clearly defined parameters for setting the target flight and angle.


    The flight and angle rules then and now ensure that trap machines for every registered shoot at every club will meet these minimum requirements.


    The 3 hole rule was very clear that the minimum angle must be no less that a straight away from posts 1 and 5 and yet it was common knowledge this rule was routinely ignored during this time frame.


    I think thats noteworthy when you consider the Executive Committee just handed out 5 year suspensions to two members for 1) failing to return ATA daily fees to the shooters for a canceled shoot, 2) not posting pay-off sheets, and 3) for not breaking down the various state and ATA fees in the printed program.


    Given the harsh sentences this had to have been viewed by the EC as a most grievous type of rule violation. Kudos to the EC for coming down hard on members for violating rules that ensure the integrity of the sport.


    It does makes me wonder how this sport would have evolved if the past Executive Committees had shown the same vigor for rule enforcement when the fight and angle rule was being routinely ignored 20+ years.


    Jerry Hauser
     
  13. KennyRay

    KennyRay Active Member

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    Jerry:

    While there were some EC members who favored soft targets, there were many others who spoke out against it at the time, even offering the threat that shooters scores registered on illegal targets might be disqualified by the EC.

    Some EC members went back and forth on keeping the straightaways from 1 & 5 for the integrity of the sport or making targets easier to attract and keep shooters fearing that keeping the majority of scores lower would lose membership.

    Some EC members objected to amendments to the rule referring to 2-hole or 3-hole on the basis that it was not necessary . . . . straightaway from Post 1 & Post 5 being pretty clear regardless of what trap was used.

    Kay Ohye and Frank Little are two shooters I recall objecting to narrowing the angles, but there were several other noteable shooters who favored "soft targets" and I never would have thought they would.

    As you correctly stated, some EC members did in fact show no interest in enforcing the rules, even at the Grand American Handicap tournament where 2-hole and short targets were routinely thrown. I remember reading that one EC group stated in the ATA minutes that they left the decision on how to set targets at the Grand up to the target setting committee. I couldn't believe they said that in the official minutes.

    In my opinion, deviating from our written rules detracts from the integrity of our sport, our record-holders and our history.

    Kenny Ray Estes
    Pittsgrove, NJ
     
  14. oleolliedawg

    oleolliedawg Banned User Banned TS Supporters

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    As you can recall Ken, the biggest bitchers about the return to the three-hole target in the mid-nineties were the marathon shooters and marginal back fencers. The rest didn't care what hole they were in. We still have a few of those crybabies left!!
     
  15. KennyRay

    KennyRay Active Member

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    Oleolliedawg:

    I'm staying out of any name-calling . . . I just think the game should be returned to the way it was for over 100 years.

    Remember, history shows that in the beginning, trap was shot with gun below the elbow. Shouldering the gun was one of the first moves to make the game easier. A huge departure from trapshooting being estabished for practice in wing-shooting.

    I've never read of shooters crying over their yardage in the early Grand American Handicaps at live birds. In those days they were handicapped from 26 to 33 yards. One Grand I recall only had 4 shooters placed at the extreme 33 mark.

    And then came target shooting from 14 and 16 yards. How did we ever survive when for a few years Grand American singels championship was shot from 18 yards?

    All I hear on the sporting clays courses is laughing while shooting hard targets. Don't see a lot of top scores either. Difficult targets doesn't seem to have cause that game to decline.

    Shoot well!

    Kenny Ray
     
  16. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    Heres an article written by Kay O. in T&F concerning angle changes to our game and the consequences.

    Ohye’s Outlook
    By Kay Ohye

    The comments, remarks and opinions expressed in this column are strictly mine and do not necessarily reflect the position of any official of the ATA or representative of the magazine.

    Trapshooting is a sport and as such attracts participation because of the challenge and the thrill of a possible win. Shooting a high score should guarantee winning or, at least, placing in an event.
    In recent years, however, there has been a trend toward throwing a softer target at our national championship, the Grand American. Delegates seem to have mixed feelings about throwing the old standard 50-yard three-hole bird versus the 48-yard, two-hole bird recently thrown at the Grand. The two-yard difference in length plus the reduced angle of the two-hole bird result in a less-challenging target.
    Does a shooter want to shoot a winning score or merely a higher score? No one likes to shoot poor scores, but I feel that a shooter should win on the basis of his ability, not because the game is getting easier. It’s fine to tell the gang back home that you shot 97x100, but it seems very hollow when gauged against the number who also shot the same score. In addition the score did not probably win any trophies or money.
    The two-hole target has also given a definite advantage to the long-yardage shooter – more so than any advancement in ammunition and guns. Many top shooters “read” the trap, and the elimination of the deep-angle target has further increased these shooter’s competiveness.
    There has also been some discussion in recent years about making the one-ounce load mandatory. Although I believe that the incentive to do this is to decrease the long-yardage shooters’ potential to win, I think it will hurt all medium-yardage shooters as well. It will favor the short-yardage shooter. Again, I do not think any rule should favor one yardage group over another.
    The one-ounce load for recoil reduction and reduced reloading price has helped many shooters. But I will continue to shoot 1 1/8-oz. loads as long as they are legal, since shooting one-ounce loads at 27 yards is equivalent to shooting a 20-gauge, which would give my competition too great an advantage.
    The purpose of the handicap event is to equalize potential and to insure equal competiveness on any given day. The return of the 50-yard, three-hole target would further enhance this equalization, rather than turning toward a reduced shot load for a hope of the same results.
    Let the winning score be a meaningful one for whoever is fortunate to shoot it. Let that person know he was truly the best in his class or yardage group. That’s what the game is all about.

    [ TRAP & FIELD, January 1981, page 39 ]

    HAP
     
  17. reddottm1

    reddottm1 Member

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    I own a pat trap, where is a 2 or 3 hole? I had a winchester trap years ago an it hade hole adjustments, don't understand. Thanks.
     
  18. KennyRay

    KennyRay Active Member

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    Reddottm1:

    I am assuming that some gun clubs still have the old Winchester X trap(s) in use and the ATA must believe so as well because referenced in our official rules is the "Standard Model 1524" which was the desired trap (Winchester-Western) for better than 50 years and that "under no circumstances shall a Standard Model 1524 be set in less than the #2 hole."

    "Any other trap machine shall be adjusted so as to throw not less than equivalent angles." Referring to the 17 degrees right & left of the center line (straightaway target path).

    Hope this helps.

    Kenny Ray Estes
    Pittsgrove, NJ
     
  19. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    reddottm1, the term; "hole" in trap speak means the angle degree clays are thrown. The old Winchester hand set trap had holes in the bottom plate for throwing less or more angle with a simple pull of the pin. Three hole means a 44 degree angle, two hole means 34 degree. The term hole is a carryover from a different era.

    HAP
     
  20. 320090T

    320090T Well-Known Member

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    reddottm1, on a newer "G" series Pat, look at the number stamped on the bar between the two limit switches on the cylinder located in the front of the machine. Should be a two, for two hole, and be 4½" long. On the older G's, you have to loosen the holder containing the limit switches and move them outward. Your manual shows how to do it. Check and center the field by moving the whole unit, again, the manual shows how to do this.

    On a "SW" series PAT, you are on your own, never worked with one.