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Thomas Jefferson

Discussion in 'Off Topic Threads' started by Paladin, Dec 8, 2008.

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  1. Paladin

    Paladin Well-Known Member

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    Note the contrast between Jefferson, and what Hussein blathers about today.

    "The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not."





    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."





    "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms."





    "The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."





    "To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical."







    Thomas Jefferson
     
  2. Frank C

    Frank C Well-Known Member

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    The guy HAD to have a crystal ball.....

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -TJefferson
     
  3. deadelk

    deadelk Member

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    Jeffersons' failure however, which was his accomodation of slavery, which resulted in the civil war which as we all know was won by the federals and caused the demise of the rebublic and the reversal of states rights. This has led directly to the rise of quasi socialism and the direction of our system of government today. If Jefferson could have had the foresight to see into the future I am sure he would have shipped every slave back to their homeland.
     
  4. 12Gagejon

    12Gagejon Member

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    But remember He own and loved a slave too Jon
     
  5. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    doda - Mr. Jefferson lives not too far from me in Virginia. I have been to his home several times. Mr. Jefferson is alive and well in Virginia.

    deadelk- Please review your history about the issue of slavery and Mr. Jefferson. In his first few drafts of the Declaration of Independence, he included language that would have ended slavery. This was rejected by the other delegates. Ben Franklin advised that the convention address the issue of Independence now and then consider the slavery issue after the first objective has been achieved.

    Pat Ireland
     
  6. BT-100dc

    BT-100dc Active Member

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    I believe that Thomas Jefferson owned pistols. It's amazing how the gun control bunch makes the issue of pistol ownership doesn't apply to the 2nd Amendment. I believe in the original intent of the 2nd Amendment. Thomas Jefferson understood what it meant; he understood the British tyranny and how important to empower the people. It's an individual right, not a collective right of a State. State rights are clearly stated as such in the Constitution. I wonder if Eric Holder, Obama's Attn'y General understands this? I don't believe Chicago & San Francisco cities understand the 2nd Amendment. Join the NRA; they clearly understand your 2nd Amendment Rights. Darrell
     
  7. DJM

    DJM Member

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    "Politics is the art of the possible" - Otto von Bismark
     
  8. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    Thomas Jefferson new three hundred years ago what the liberals of today still don't know.

    Bob Lawless

    "Laws that forbid the carrying of arms...disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.”

    Thomas Jefferson
     
  9. trapwife

    trapwife Well-Known Member

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    Haven't had the pleasure of visiting Tom's famous and fancy home, but did get to visit his country home in VA. It is under re-construction and was very interesting. I urge every parent to try and drag your kids to some of our national treasures that preserve the history of our country. It is amazing how much easier history in the classroom becomes after they have "been there, seen that".
     
  10. AAA 27 AAA

    AAA 27 AAA TS Member

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    Thomas Jefferson knew that slavery was wrong and felt he did not possess the knowledge or leadership to end it in his time. On the other hand, he was confident in his successors to right things regarding slavery, and we did.
     
  11. J.Woolsey

    J.Woolsey Member

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    Dead Elk to give you a better understanding of civil war history, and the real reason for the war. It most certrainly was not slavery. This resolution was passed unanimously by Congress on July 23rd, 1861. You may read it yourself in the Congressional Record. "The war is waged by the government of the United States not in the spirit of conquest or subjugation, nor for the purpose of overthrowing or interfering with the rights or institutions of the states, but to defend the Union." Lincoln stated "The war is not about slavery, he even offered a 13th ammendment that would have allowed the south to keep the slaves. But in return the cost to the south was a 40% tariff, the South wouldn't agree to more than 10%. The North was willing to sell the Blacks out for money, higher taxes. Lincoln's offer of the 13th ammendment would have made slavery permanent. The South was quite wealthy at the time, supplying 70 to 80% of the taxes. The North wanted the 40% tariff, and the South said no. Lincoln was quoted in Hapgood's book, Abraham Lincoln The Man Of The People. on page 273 "If I could save the Union without freeing any of the slaves I would do it." Abe was not the great liberator that re-written history would have you believe. I could go on and on but will leave it at that. Abe was a racist plain and simple. J.Woolsey
    And there DeadElk you have a condensed version of the real reason for the Civil War
     
  12. Wahoo

    Wahoo TS Member

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    Trapwife, you must be referring to Poplar Forest, Jefferson's summer home in Forest, just west of Lynchburg. It is amazing how much history is encompassed in that area. 30-40 miles southest of Poplar Forest is Red Hill, last residence of Patrick Henry and where he is buried. Another 20 or so miles east of Red Hill is the stomping grounds of John Randolph, the much-feared first cousin of Jefferson, who was Jefferson's Congressional Whip until Randolph split with Jefferson over Jefferson's acceptance of the first really big-time Federal bailout of speculators, the Yazoo Delta Scandal. Randolph called himself JR of R
    to distance himself from his first cousin of the same name, "'Possum John" Randolph. The second "R" in JR of R stands for Roanoke for his plantation was located on the Roanoke River. JR of R's older brother, Richard, was the principal suspect in the tremendous social scandal that took place in Cumberland County, and which resulted in John Marshall, First Chief Justice of the U.S Supreme Court, being one of the attorneys for Richard, who was acquitted.

    The circle was sort of completed when JR of R, while running for a political office, engaged the by-now elderly Patrick Henry in debate at Charlotte County Court House in what was Henry's last major debate.

    John Randolph of Roanoke is buried in Hollywood Cemetery in Richmond in which city lived in their prime Thomas Jefferson (Governor of Virginia and President of the United States), John Marshall (First Chief Justice) and Patrick Henry (twice Governor of Virgina)

    It breaks one's heart to learn of these larger-than-life Virginians and then to think that the Old Dominion presently has for a governor the insipid, greasy-haired Tim Kaine, who came from obscurity and who we hope will return there very soon.
     
  13. SF SGM

    SF SGM Member

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    The 13th Ammendment which Mr. Woosley is refering to was passed by Congress and ratified by two states. Several years ago, the Lincoln Society "uncovered" the letter sent by Lincoln to John Milton, governor of Florida asking for his support in the ratification of this ammendment. Florida had already left the Union so the letter was ignored.

    The original 13th Ammendment that was ratified banned the title of nobility to politicians, so, technically, the 13th banned lawyers with the title of "Esquire" from holding Federal public office. Too bad that one went by the wayside.

    Van
     
  14. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    J.Woolsey - I would contend that the slavery issue was a catalyst to the war. I also contend that the War for Southern Independence is best defined as a Revolution, and not a Civil War. The South had no desire to over throw the existing Government in DC. They simply desired to split from the Union and create their won Government much like we did with Brittan in 1776.

    Pat Ireland
     
  15. J.Woolsey

    J.Woolsey Member

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    Pat, I respectfully disagree with you on the slavery being the catalyst. In the beginning it was about tariff money plain and simple. Lincoln stated that I have no purpose directly or indirectly In a letter to Alexander Stevens who was later the Vice President of the Confederacy, Lincoln said "Do the people of the South really entertain fear that a Republican administration would directly or indirectly interfere with their slaves or with them about their slaves? If they do, I wish to assure you that once as a friend, and still I hope not an enemy, that there is no cause for such fears. The south would be in no more danger in this respect than it was in the days of Washington". This being one of Lincoln's many quotes saying, it's not over slavery. Slavery was never the issue, not until recently as political revisionists and the "Politically correct" wished to make it one.
    To quote Gen. Patrick Cleburn January 1864 " If the South lost it means that the history of this heroic struggle will be written by the enemy. That our youth will be trained by Northern school teachers, will learn from Northern school books their version of the war, will be impressed by all of the influences of History and Education to regard our gallant debt as traders and our maimed veterans as fit subjects for derision." That is exactly what happened, Ask any 8th grade student what the Civil War was over, it is taught that the war was over slavery and that the North was right and the South was not. I hate seeing History adjusted to be "Politically Correct" rather than correct. As for it being a rebellion, I fully agree with you.
     
  16. SF SGM

    SF SGM Member

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    In the 1920's, Congress stated that the war fought from 1861-1865 would known as the "War Between the States", not a Civil War as the Confederacy never had plans of overthrowing the Federal government.

    As far as the slavery issue is concerned, that will always be debated. I do find it hard to believe that all those Southerners including over 30 of my ancestors went to war and some died for that "pecular instution". Less than 10% of the white populatin of the South owned slaves and less than 5% owned 10 or more, so if the remaining 90 or so percent fought for slavery, I find that hard to believe. Around 20% of the free men of color in the South owned slaves, that can be found in the census record in the slave index.

    My home state of Florida Ordinance of Seccession does not mention slavery, one of the few that do not, the majority of the C.S. states do mention slavery in their ordinances.

    As a curator of a War Between the States museum, I am amazed with this "politcally" correct history that is being taught in the schools today. We do over 3,000 schools children a year ages from 6 thru college and the vast majority state that the war was fought over slavery and when you mention tariffs and states rights, they get that deer in the headlight look. Very, very few in any have ever read the U.S. Constitution and think even today that it is illegal for a state to leave the Union.

    This war like all other that have been fought and sadly, those that will be fought in the furure will always have many opinions and we all know about opinions.

    "Only the dead have seen the end of war"

    Van
     
  17. Frenchy

    Frenchy Member

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    Was it not also true that the Europeans were watching our war between the states very closely with the though of maybe invading us again if the south was sucessful in there endeaver ? With the British to the north in Canada and the French in the south in Mexico they would both be invading different countries with no reason to come together and help each other,had a history teacher in high school who brought this to light.
     
  18. SF SGM

    SF SGM Member

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    Frenchy,

    You are partley correct on both the French and Brittish invasions. During the "peace" talks held between Lincoln and C.S.A. V.P. Stephens, Feb. 1865, Lincoln asked if the C.S.A. would help defend Texas and the S.W. against a French invasion which Stephens said no. The Brittish had a thought about it but decided not to. They just dangles the idea of "recognition" of the C.S.A. but could not and would not due to the slavery issue.

    Very few people know of the Peace Talks held between the U.S.A. and the C.S.A. and are somewhat shocked to learn the Lincoln actually wanted to pay all Southerners for their "property(slaves) two years after according to current historians, he freed them with the Emancipation Proclamtion.

    Van
     
  19. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Van- he only freed part of the slaves with the Emancipation Proclamation. I retain my belief that slavery was a catalyst that ignited the war. A catalyst speeds up something, it does not initiate an event. There were bitter feelings over slavery for over 50 years preceding the Northern invasion. These feelings emotionally prepared the North for war.

    Pat Ireland
     
  20. SF SGM

    SF SGM Member

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    Pat,

    The Emancipation Proclamation only freed those slaves in "states in revolt" but excluded those portions of those same states under union control. Since the states that formed the C.S.A. were no longer members of the union, it did not apply to them. It did not free the slaves in the border states that remained in the union.

    Perhaps it was a catalyst for some but the vast majority of the Federal soldiers fought to "preserve" the union. Grant even states, "it this becomes a war of abolition, I will turn in my sword". His wife, Julia Dent did not free her slaves till the 3rd 13th ammendment was passed in the summer of 1865.
    I feel that it was not so much the instution of slavery but the expansion of slavery into the new states out west that was part of the catalyst of the war.

    Just an additional note, the C.S.A. constitution banned the imporation of slaves into the C.S.A. without Congressional approval.

    Van
     
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