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Things to watchout for (ATA Rule change)

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by pigeon101, Jul 11, 2011.

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  1. pigeon101

    pigeon101 Member

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    2011 ATA Rule changes. This one caught myself and my wife off guard at a recent registered shoot. I was never informed of this rule change not by the ATA or by the club holding shoot. My wife has been shooting in the ATA for about 3 yrs. Always classified as a lady shooter and a D-Classs shooter.
    She shot at and broke a 93 this weekend. Her best score ever. The single event was over and scores were posted. 3 people with 93's in D-Class.
    Well looks like a shoot off for class champion and runner up I told her.
    So we waited around untill the end off the day for the shoot off. Names were called and shoot off started. My wifes name never called. So we went to the classification desk to ask about her score and shoot off. We were told she would not be shooting for D-Class champion because she was classified as a lady shooter. Well that is how it always has been. They would not allow her to shoot because the ATA has changed Category events and class events.
    She was categorized as a lady and not D-Class. So she could not shoot for a class trophy. What a bunch of bull$ht this was and is. If classification doesn't inform the uninformed about this rule change there will be alot of shooter fallout from the ATA. This gos for Sr vets, vets , ladies, juniors and sub jr. You make sure you ask befor you are automaticly placed into a category with AA and back fence shooters. I will be E-mailing the ATA about this change.


    Jason in PA
     
  2. 870

    870 Well-Known Member

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    It doesn't sound like your gripe should be w/ the ATA, but w/ local shoot management. Unless your wife was at least tied for the Lady trophy, she is allowed to shoot for Class.

    Sounds like management doesn't understand the rule, and you didn't know the rule well enough to protect yourself.
     
  3. Bill Roberts

    Bill Roberts Active Member

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    This happen to my wife at the Spokane State shoot she chose to stay
    on D class. Then after she made runner up in D they told her a lady
    that lost in ladies was dropping down to shoot of for her prize.
    We complained but they said that was the way it was and whoever
    Told her the other way was wrong????

    So Spokane which way is it?

    Bill
     
  4. AveragEd

    AveragEd Well-Known Member

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    Jason, I could be in left field with this opinion, as I haven't shot registered targets since 2006 but I recall some talk about that very rule change a year or so ago. It's something about you have to declare for one or the other and cannot "fall back" on one trophy if you lose another. I think that category is automatic; you have to declare class or yardage group.

    Ed
     
  5. pigeon101

    pigeon101 Member

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    Why would a D-Class women shooter classifie as a lady against the ladies that are shooting AA,A and B Class? Thats a good question. Why? Well its because the ATA is age discriminatory and gender discriminatory. I think if they are going to be this way is should be class shooting and thats it. No Ladies, Vets
    sr vets, subjrs or juniors. Just my thoughts. Naysayers you may begin you comments.

    Jason in PA
     
  6. pigeon101

    pigeon101 Member

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    870 you need to talk with your ata state delegates. Because I was in formed by one of them at this shootabout the rule change. If you a catergoried as a lady you cannot shoot for a class trophie is what we were told


    Jason in PA
     
  7. AveragEd

    AveragEd Well-Known Member

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    My GUESS is that the change was intended to stiffle the complaining that has been going on for years about how special category shooters have multiple chances at a trophy in an event while adult males between 18 and 65 have only one. For example, a female under age 18 could shoot for her class or yardage group and lady and sub junior/junior. If she shot off for her class trophy and lost, she could shoot-off for her age or gender category. Now, just like you and me, she has to declare which ONE trophy she wants to compete for.

    Ed
     
  8. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Jason, you are informed of any rule changes by the newest ATA Rulebook (on shootata.com) and this provision has been on line for a couple of years. Since you clearly only have understood half of it, you should read it before taking the next step.

    There is no point in complaining to "the ATA" about it. It's a rule made by the Board of Directors and Frank Pascoe, your delegate, is the one to contact. Be warned, TS.com is no place to get accurate information about any rule at all.

    Neil
     
  9. pigeon101

    pigeon101 Member

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    870 You are right about one thing. I didn't know the rule well enough to argue about it. But there were 2 ata state delegates at this shoot.
    So I guess they don't know the rules eighter. I guess the ata and local clubes make there owm rules.


    Jason in PA
     
  10. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Ed, unfortunately you have it all wrong, even the supposed reason for the rule, which is to speed shoot-offs, though I can't understand why it would.

    Neil
     
  11. AveragEd

    AveragEd Well-Known Member

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    Sorry for posting incorrect information. As I said, I haven't had to concern myself with the ATA's policies for five years. And as I also said, I was GUESSing. But I will state that the complaining I mentioned was very real.

    Here's an example of how the old rule was manipulated. Back in the mid-90s, I had a 197 in another state's singles championship and five of us with 197s were to shoot off for open Class "A" runner-up. But we had to wait to start shooting until a shoot-off for high veteran between two men with 198s ended because one of the contestants was in Class "A" and could fall back on the Class "A" runner-up trophy if he lost the shoot-off for veteran. He did and we waited around for an hour and never got to shoot-off. In that regard, the new rule WOULD speed shoot-offs.

    As it turned out, I knew the shooter and wasn't upset about it - I always lost shoot-offs back then, anyway. But three of my potential shoot-off partners were hot, saying that he "took our trophy."

    Ed
     
  12. pigeon101

    pigeon101 Member

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    Neil I have read this rule change. And clearly it was a classification mistake by not asking what she wanted to do. There has been a ton of complaints at this years state shoot about the rule change. Not everybody has a computer to access new ata rule changes. Something should have been sent out with new average cards at the beginning of the year.
     
  13. pigeon101

    pigeon101 Member

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    ED you are right. There will be no falling back from aq category to a class anymore. Its category or class you can't be both
     
  14. 870

    870 Well-Known Member

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    Guys, there hasn't been any new rule change. The Grand hasn't even happened yet this year. The rule change you guys are talking about happened a couple years ago, and it is clear none of you know anything about it.

    A category shooter that has the high score or a tie for a trophy in his/her category cannot fall back and take class trophies. That is the ATA rule as it applies in this case. Unless this guys wife tied or had high score in Lady, she was entitled to shoot-off in her class. He doesn't make it sound like she was high in Lady. If she was high in Lady, then the result as described is correct.
     
  15. pigeon101

    pigeon101 Member

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    Ed thats right about the category and which one to compete for. That has to be declared at classification. The only problem with that is she wasnt asked she was automaticly put in as a lady. She wasnt asked if she wanted to be placed in D-Class.


    Jason
     
  16. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    But Ed, the rules haven't been like that for years. You have had to declare which kind of trophy you were competing for within 15 minutes of the end of the event and if you didn't you got category for a long time. This rule change does away with that choice.

    If I, as a Senior Vet, declare that at the start of the Grand, if I take second in the GAH I get first in Senior Veteran. If say, I tie with some other Senior Veterans for that second place, and lose our shoot-off for category, others who shot lower scores than I did go home with GAH money and trophies. And I get nothing.

    Neil
     
  17. pigeon101

    pigeon101 Member

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    870 that was not the case. High score in ladies that day was a 98.
    she was told she couldn't shoot for class
     
  18. 870

    870 Well-Known Member

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    Unloader, yes what happened to you is the way the rule works. It has been beaten to death on this site over the years.

    jason: I'm still not clear on whether you follow it or not. Was your wife high (or tied) in Lady or not. If not, there is absolutely no question she was entitled to shoot-off for D Class, and it was no misunderstanding about declaring category at all. Category shooters can take class trophies, just not when they at least tie for category.
     
  19. pigeon101

    pigeon101 Member

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    870 Maybe a ATA delegate can step in and clear this up for us. I guess the 2 delegates at this shoot don't know what they are talking about
     
  20. 870

    870 Well-Known Member

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    Jason:

    Then she was entitled to shoot-off for D Class under ATA rules, and anyone telling you differently is mistaken (Even if they are ATA delegates)
     
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