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Things Have Changed Since 1960

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by K005, Nov 1, 2011.

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  1. K005

    K005 Member

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    Averages have really skyrocketed since 1960! In 1960 there only two shooters with 93% or greater handicap average(1500+ targets). The average leader, Douglas Smith, had a 93.25 and ended the year on the 21 yard line. C E Barnhart, the only shooter's name that I recognized on the high avg list, had a 91.02 average from the 27. Ohio only had one 27 yard shooter, Fred Waldock. Dan Orlich had an 88.46 handicap average (he led the ATA with a 99.33 singles average). Dan Millar led doubles with a 96.62 average. It's the same game, but handicap shooting really changed.
     
  2. Cray

    Cray Member

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    THREE HOLE VS TWO HOLE?????????

    I thought it would be a good time to inject this! Cray
     
  3. BigM-Perazzi

    BigM-Perazzi Well-Known Member

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    Plastic wads?

    custom stocks?
     
  4. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    1955; Yardage increased from the 25 to 27 yards.

    1960; Soft chilled shot in new ammo from all the major ammo makers and for reloading as well. Cardboard and felt wadding in paper hulls housed the components of the day and wouldn't be close to acceptable today.

    1964; after the yardage increase from 25 to 27, it took 9 years for the first 100 straight to be broken from the new 27 yard line.

    1965; The introduction of all new all plastic AA wad from Win/Olin for target loads. Around that same time frame, antimony was added to shot for hardness for superior patterns, especially at longer distances.

    1969/70; Trap interrupters were mandated for all Winchester hand set 1524 traps to help prevent top shooters from locking the trap position and shooting their neighbors same angle target.

    1979/80; The cheating era began on the west coast to entice more top average leaders to shoot their club to maintain higher averages for west coast shooters.

    1982; I personally shot my very first less than 34 degree angles at Redlands T&S club in southern CA. Those targets were set as true straights from stations 2 and 4! I contacted the CA delegate informing him of the rule violation taking place that day.

    1982/2011; Setting illegal angles spread across the country like a wildfire in the name of shooting higher scores and averages! The acceptance of cheating our own rules is a shameful era in the historical aspect of our sport! Some clubs adhered to the rule book settings while some didn't on a nationwide basis. One of our past Presidents stated publicly that he began registering targets in 1982 and never shot any 44 degree settings anywhere (those set according to the rule book at that time). I'd have to guess cheating was more prevalent in certain areas of the country than others? The delegates nationwide shirked their responsibilities to enforce our organizations rule pertaining to angles and distances a legal target must be thrown.

    1995/6; The rule was changed to allow 34 degree angles to be legal targets for registered purposes in ATA shooting. Every target setting change to our sport since the mandated (TRAP MACHINE INTERRUPTERS)in the late 60s/70s has been a movement for easier thrown targets.

    Read the suggestion put to a vote at our last Grand American meeting by several popular delegates wanting an even easier thrown target. Be sure the delegates we elect for the future are wanting what's best for our sport instead of their own personal egos with high scores and averages! To surpass the old timers that set shooting records with the inferior guns and ammunition mentioned at the top of this post? Whoopeee n lookiee at meee and my great scores today!!

    K005, I hope this kinda brings you into the current day of soothing shooting egos and who's responsible for those ( CHANGES )in our sport.

    Hap
     
  5. Hauxfan

    Hauxfan Well-Known Member

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    Great post, Hap.

    Good information.

    Hauxfan!
     
  6. CANTWIN

    CANTWIN Member

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    Hap

    I did not know this history.Thank you

    hook
     
  7. Steve Bills

    Steve Bills Member

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    Hap: Good information & thank you for this post..Steve B.
     
  8. K005

    K005 Member

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    Hap, what you're saying by condoning cheating is that we screwed ourselves. We let our ego get in the way. We felt better shooting high averages rather than winning. That probably killed money shooting.
    Bob K. 5719005
     
  9. recurvyarcher

    recurvyarcher Well-Known Member

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    I wouldn't mind a more difficult target presentation. I like a challenge.
     
  10. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    Thanks Jr.! I wasn't aware of the exact dates those interrupters were mandated.

    Bob K., your summation is very spot on PLUS this. The much higher scores and averages destroyed the games perception that it wasn't necessary to shoot a perfect score to win, place or show. (Very attractive draw for prospective new members!)In todays shooting, for the most part, it takes a perfect score to tie at most larger shoots. The average joe/janes has a hot day and tweaks out a tie with a high average shooter. There isn't a shoot-off on his hot day, it's carried over to the next like event, possibly two days later! (edited; Except the handicaps) So much for his hottest shooting day of the year or maybe ever?? A day when he couldn't miss? Yes, things have drastically changed in our sport, question is, was making the game easier best for our sport or for the high average seekers?

    The guys posting the averages in 1960 didn't seem to mind too much that the sport wasn't all about super high averages? The numbers began dwindling in the 80s or thereabouts. What happened to our ability to draw more members and retain them during that time frame to date? Sure, the economy plays a huge part but there are other circumstances involved also. We followed the same destructive path as did the skeet org. and now we're reaping the rewards of such.

    Hap
     
  11. plaw

    plaw Active Member

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    You could buy a gal. of gas for 16 cents. , and mod. 12's ruled most trap lines.
     
  12. 3357

    3357 Member

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    I vote for a return to a three hole target.
     
  13. jim brown

    jim brown Well-Known Member

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    Hap, what year did they drill and tap the plates on the Winchester traps at the Grand for a 2 1/2 hole? How many years did they use those plates and throw 2 1/2 hole targets? Did they change to the 2 1/2 hole targets from 3 hole targets or from 2 hole targets. See ya in Tucson.


    jim brown
     
  14. bigben

    bigben Active Member

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    3357, that was tried in 1995, the rank and file wanted 3 hole targets, "that will show the big boys" well it did,! the A shooters went to B the B shooters went to C the D shooters went the the septic tank, attendance dropped off considerably, as no one wants in his own mind to look like an inept shooter. However the accomplished shooters took in in stride, worked out faster moves, and the cream still rose to the top. The ATA found that for every one shooter who liked the challenge there were 10 more that were tired of losing money when playing the ATA options. As far as the handicap averages, only a few understood the value of high impacting guns, there are many very good shooters out there now with older guns, the barrels have been bent and stocks altered to pound 27 yd. targets, the rest is history incinerate em!
     
  15. miketmx

    miketmx Well-Known Member

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    I started shooting in the 60's and I believe the sandbagging mindset was more prevalent back then. I remember when a guy came back to Minnesota after working out of state for a couple of years and he said he had received a punch to the 22 yardline and some guys at the local club rolled on the ground with laughter because the shooter didn't get paid a bunch for his score.
     
  16. Barry C. Roach

    Barry C. Roach Well-Known Member

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    In 1960, I was setting targets at age 12. Got 35 cents per case. Yup times have certainly changed.
     
  17. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    "Now you get one good score from the 21. Now there is no way you could have an average from the 21 if you are competitive."

    If you shoot nothing but large shoots satellite grands and the like. You shoot between 92 and 95 all the time. You wouldn't get yardage as it requires more than that to win in todays big shoot handicaps. you could conceivably have that kind of an average at the end of the target year. You wouldn't take yardage either.

    Bob Lawless
     
  18. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    User 1 Did anyone say any different????

    Bob Lawless
     
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