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THE WSC AND THE GRAND - A DISMAL FAILURE ...

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by Devilsadvocate, Aug 13, 2008.

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  1. Devilsadvocate

    Devilsadvocate TS Member

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    After reading “Mr. Positive’s (WPT) comment that the Grand/WSC is a dismal failure, I got to thinkin’ about that. I have decided that I have a different view! Sure, attendance might well be down some, but the reasons for that are out of the control of the ATA and WSC. Gas prices higher than ever and the cost of ammo, components, job uncertainty and “fun” money going to frivolous expenditures like food and other living expenses. Then there are folks who won’t attend because of their third grade mentality, never mind that Ohio made no effort to keep the Grand. And then there is the heat. I had a guy tell me this morning that it was too hot. I asked him if he had checked the temps and he said no, but it is always hot. It was, in fact, cooler in Sparta as we spoke than where we stood.

    I look at the Grand as the greatest shooting competition in the world, sort of like the greatest show on earth. Thousands of kids and adults competing against and watching the best there is, old friendships renewed and new ones made. Shooters making their first trip and oldsters getting 40 and 50-year attendance pins. Vendors having the opportunity to display their wares; make a few bucks and the shooters getting the chance to browse and buy new products. Over two million targets in the air to be broken hopefully by the shooters, many that will achieve that “once in a lifetime” score or shooting a personal best. Some will even haul a few bucks away with them. Let’s not forget the great aroma and taste of “fair” food.

    A couple of million dollars spent over the duration of the Grand with much of it finding it’s way into the local economy. Sparta putting out the welcome mat for attendee’s and guests to make them feel appreciated. A chance to experience the Grand and the entire atmosphere it provides as well as visiting the best shooting facility in the country.

    A dismal failure, I don’t think so WPT! Success is measured in different ways but failure seems to have a universal meaning. They are going to grab your guns, outsiders can't buy ammo without a card, law enforcement everywhere (can you say, "I feel safe"), no trees, no eggs, on and on ad infinitum or ad nauseum. If it is a dismal failure, it is only in the dismally negative and narrow minds of people like you. Every Grand has been and future Grand’s will continue to be a success for Sparta, the ATA and those fortunate enough to attend. That’s my story and I am sticking to it.
     
  2. Little Dog

    Little Dog TS Member

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    Devil, I'm sure glad you don't have a third grade mentality- fortunately your's apparently stopped in kindergarten.
     
  3. BIGDON

    BIGDON Well-Known Member

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    Little Dog: Maybe you ought to take your ankle biting butt back to the porch because you surly can't run with the Big Dogs.

    To the Devil: Good post.

    Don
     
  4. j2jake

    j2jake Well-Known Member

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    Good post D! Jake
     
  5. Dove Commander

    Dove Commander TS Member

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    Great post DA. You managed to make excuses for Sparta and insult the Ohio shooters without even trying. I would like to see how Ohio ranked in attendance at the Grand. Your comments actually hurt the Sparta site in the long run. You've helped me in my decision to attend next year. Can you spare a few bucks for gas money. It's a 10 hour drive. I don't own a camper, so I'll need a place to stay too. By the way, got any food, shells, or beer?
     
  6. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Devilsadvocate- It is quite difficult for me to figure out how anyone could disagree with your post. But, some more clever than I am, did come up with ways.

    Pat Ireland
     
  7. grnberetcj

    grnberetcj Active Member

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    Good post DA....accurate too.

    For those that do not attend (I haven't - Yet!) it's their loss.

    Curt - Delaware
     
  8. Jerry944t

    Jerry944t Well-Known Member

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    Good post DA. I don't see how the economy can't be hurting attendance at all optional events such as trap shooting. I know, at a local level, it's hurting.

    I loved the Grand at Vandalia. The fact that it now is in Sparta is a minor inconvenience. I'd still like to go but this year, it's economically not feasible. I know plenty of others that are in the same boat.
     
  9. JB Logan Co. Ohio

    JB Logan Co. Ohio TS Member

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    Devilsadvocate and all the other posters here that continue to say that Ohio did nothing to keep the Grand in Ohio. First of all I have no axe to grind that the Grand moved to Ill. I wish it to be a successful venture. Am I disappointed that it moved? You bet, but it is a personal problem. I've not said anything negative/hateful or disparaging about the move. I can't wait to get there (in the future) myself. Let's set the record straight, there was enough land offered to build the "new" grand in Cambridge, Ohio and the offer was turned down. So let's drop the "Ohio did nothing" crap as you are spreading false rumors.

    JB=Jerry Beach 8503917
     
  10. W.P.T.

    W.P.T. TS Member

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    People defend and make excuses sometimes when none are needed, that does not change the outcome of what the focus of the discussion was or is ... The bottom line is what determines if the Grand is a Failure or Success, not peoples desire that it continues to exist ... There are so many people who could never think of their life without the Grand, makes one wonder how many of them didn't even make it there for whatever reason now that they still have it available to them ... The shooters in or from the State of Ohio are not the determining factor of the Grand being a success or not though most people on here state and feel that they are ... That sure is one way to make the shooters from Ohio the Fall Guy as the Grand attendance continues to decline as in, any excuse is better than none ... The people on here who think the shooters from Ohio can make or break the Grand better look at Cardinal Center which was the alternative and looks pretty damn good, so why would they really care or bother with Sparta ..? Mr.Positive (WPT) has spoken and I am positive the Grand is a DISMAL FAILURE despite posts such as the one from Devils Advocate (and his followers) who are probably sitting at home typing their response rather than supporting the ATA in Sparta and helping keep the shoot from being a total disaster ... There are many reasons for the Grand not being a successful shoot but the main one is the ATA itself, circumstances and economics just compound it after that ... WPT ... (YAC) ...
     
  11. JBrooks

    JBrooks TS Member

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    Oh my goodness, I just got back from Sparta and I find myself agreeing with a DA post? WPT, have you been to Sparta?
     
  12. W.P.T.

    W.P.T. TS Member

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    JBrooks,

    Yes, I have been to Sparta but not for the Grand and my opinion of the town is thats its a nice little town but not a place I would build a facilty like the WSC if I was investing my money to make a profit, nor would I of ever thought of holding (moving) the Biggest little trapshoot in the world there (the Grand used to be the Biggest) ... I actually have friends who grew up in Sparta and the immediate area around Sparta, some of the familys still live and work there yet today ... I used to live in Illinois and know that the State spends tax dollars on rediculous projects and always has so thats not in question because they could care less if the site is a money maker, just raise the taxe's ...

    You being the business man you professed to be on another thread makes me wonder if you would consider the Grand to be a success as the attendance drops off ..? If Yes, how do you measure a business's success besides the bottom line ..? If you sell things at a loss can you make up the difference by selling more of it and then to whom (just a business question not pertaining to the Grand) ..? WPT ... (YAC) ...

    What are you doing home, the big day is tomorrow ..?
     
  13. KEYBEAR

    KEYBEAR Active Member

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    The Grand has always been a money loser for the ATA it always was and will be . But I don,t think it was ever ment to be a money maker . It has been said time after time about 10% of the members shoot at the Grand . The question has to be what are the 90% doing ? Here in my State we have two weeks of little to no registerd shooting because the Grand is on . That is alot of loss income for Clubs and the ATA . Clubs are not throwing targets and the ATA gets no fees .

    ALF
     
  14. W.P.T.

    W.P.T. TS Member

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    Alf-99,

    If there were registered shoots in your area there would be even less people at the Grand, thats why ... "Mr.Positive" ...
     
  15. JBrooks

    JBrooks TS Member

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    First. The Shooting complex is MAGNIFICENT! The amount of money that has been invested there is unbelievable and extremely well spent in that the resulting product is far beyond anything that could be done with private money. Anyone who hasn't seen and experienced it should shut up until they do.

    It is accessible. We live in a big Country. No matter where you put anything it is going to be a long way from most everywhere else. Disney World is a long way from everywhere else. Is Disney World worth the trip if you have kids or are a kid at heart? Yep. Is Sparta worth the trip if you area trapshooter? A big yep!

    We flew into STL from LA and picked up a car. An hour and 20 minutes later we were at the Shoot. We bunked in with a friend that had a motor home. Plenty of spaces with full hookups and a very functional and well maintained shower building with 20 individual bathrooms with sink, shower and toilet.

    Drove into Sparta and picked up some supplies at WalMart including our shells. Pallets of every type of target shell including Federal papers. We ate at a great BBQ restaurant with reasonable prices, good service and huge portions. We also had some good food at the Complex with big burgers for $3.00 in the Tent Ehibitor's section. Very reasonable.

    Sparta is a perfect example of how tax dollars should be spent to help a local economy. The amount of money that that facility will bring into the 30 mile radius around Sparta for years to come will help ensure that area's future as part of rural America.

    As for attendance, that is complex problem that ranges from increasing travel expense to people who are still upset that the old is gone and the new is here. However, a lot of that can be overcome should the ATA hire an experienced Marketing Director and an Executive Director to whom the EC grants the power to
    actually run the Organization and implement programs for local club growth and operations.

    Finally, we are now home because we have about 80 shooters showing up for our ATA Silverado shoot this weekend.

    Those who ignorantly or unreasonably complain about Sparta are perfect examples of being part of the problem rather than being part of the solution.
     
  16. W.P.T.

    W.P.T. TS Member

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    JBrooks,

    You answered everyone of the questions I asked without directly addressing them by expressing your ignorance, case confirmed and closed ...

    Now back to the facts:

    The WSC being as MAGNIFICENT as it is, is not a big enough draw to keep the attendance of the Grand American Championships from falling off apparently due to the economy ... There are a lot of people who go to shoot where the Grand gets shot but do not shoot the Grand obviously ... I and many others choose to do neither, just so we can say we were there ... I have been to Sparta, but have never been to the Grand in Sparta but if I went I'd damn sure shoot the Grand American that you can bet on ... WPT ... (YAC) ...
     
  17. bobdog

    bobdog Active Member

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    How can somebody who hasn't been to or shot at the Grand possibly pass judgment on it?

    Just askin'.
     
  18. hairy

    hairy TS Member

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    They can't.
     
  19. JBrooks

    JBrooks TS Member

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    OK WPT, you want direct answers, here you go.

    "You being the business man you professed to be on another thread makes me wonder if you would consider the Grand to be a success as the attendance drops off ..?"

    Yes, it can be a well run shoot where everyone has a good time and their money well spent whether it turns a profit or not. Preferably, as people who actually shoot trap and have actually been there, as opposed to bowlers who have never been there, return to their home clubs and tell other members what a great place it is, attendance will start to rebuild.

    "If you sell things at a loss can you make up the difference by selling more of it and then to whom (just a business question not pertaining to the Grand) ..?"

    Yes. Everything is sold at a loss until the the aggregate volume of the margin is sufficient to cover fixed costs of production. It's called investing in the future and Sparta is a great investment in the future.

    "What are you doing home, the big day is tomorrow ..? I'd damn sure shoot the Grand American that you can bet on"

    Of course you would, because it is all about you. As I said, our Club has a 2 day registered shoot this weekend with 80 shooters expected both days. This is the result of people who are actually involved in the sport donating their time to provide opportunities for people to shoot and doing something positive for the sport rather than those like you sitting on your ass between frames bitching and complaining and adding nothing of value.

    While the Grand American is being shot, I'll be at the Club most of Friday with our President Gary Bombalicki, ATA Volunteer of the year, and several other Club members, helping with loading houses, setting machines, sweeping the patio, cleaning the johns, etc, etc, so that our Club will look good and be ready for our trapshooting breathern to enjoy two great days of fellowship and competition.

    You, on the other hand, will spend Friday like every other day. Thinking about you, finding fault with the "doers", bitching about everything from the economy to the ATA to any poor soul unlucky enough to come within earshot and making posts on TS.com about how things used to be when you were gracing the trapshooting world with your omniscient presence.

    Why don't you go here and wear them out with your "positive thoughts" for a while? .http://www.bowlingcommunity.com/
     
  20. KEYBEAR

    KEYBEAR Active Member

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    I havenot been to the moon but I know it,s not Cheese .
     
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