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The true story on the K-80 misshap

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by Downunder, Dec 23, 2008.

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  1. Downunder

    Downunder TS Member

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    Just to set the record straight about the blow up of the k-80 and regarding the shooter Lou Toth my name is Allan Hunter. I was the lead off shooter on the squad along with my wife, daughter and father in law.My wife Debra was along side of Lou when his gun exploded. Fortunately no one else was hurt on the squad. After reading some of the threads posted on this site I felt compelled to sign up and set the record straight. There was a sixth person involved who was standing behind post three at the time of the blowup his purpose was to move my father in law from post to post who was shooting from a wheel chair at the time because of a broken ankle. Tony was the only person who had some flying parts or part hit his hat fortunately he remained unhurt as well. We were all very lucky and shaken by the incident. Lou is an avid shooter and has been shooting for about 12 years The K-80 of topic was purchased new maintained and in excellent shape. ( well was) After examining the gun or what was left of it Im not sure what was to blame we can only assume and we all know what happens when people assume don't we. But any way the initial explosion sounded like a small cannon going off. Ive heard double loads go off before but this was much louder and much more explosive if you may. The shell was indeed a AA I do not believe the base wad had any thing to do with it. The shell was found also parts of the base wad. The back end of shell showing that it was a AA was the only thing left of the brass or what ever winchester uses these days. The brunt of explosion was at he base of the chamber and then blew sideways the side plates were found left side about 20 ft away and the right side a little further away to the right. Now im not a munitions expert but I dont think a single load of powder would do this extensive of damage. The barrel was separated from the rib and opened up like peeled banana curling down towards the the muzzle for about a good 6 inches. The base of the receiver was non existent could not be found. The two ejector rods were sticking out and bent out ward both exactly the same way. pieces of the receiver were found as far as forty feet away between the next trap and to the right of the trap we were on. Now the plastic part of the shell (hull) well there wasnt too much left. It was split in two length ways. and not all of it was there. Getting back to the base wad I think it was where it was suppose to be. The way that this exploded and the fact that there was melted lead in front of the chamber may indicate no wad was an issue and if this is the case it was very unfortunate mistake because Lou has been reloading for many years and if ever has loader problems always asks or removes any shell he isnt sure about and cuts them open .So now comes the question of how to get perhaps a double load of powder and no wad and enough shot to fill the shell and get a good crimp. I myself use a PW and would find it very difficult to accomplish the above scenario with out some type obvious loader foul up. I visited Lou this morning and he cant remember any loader problems. He is scheduled for surgery Wednesday the 24th to have a plate and screws in his wrist Other than that the other wounds are repairable and he should make a full recovery if all goes well. Thanks Allan Hunter
     
  2. crusha

    crusha TS Member

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    Perfectly normal guns do this all the time.
     
  3. Downunder

    Downunder TS Member

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    Just to set the record straight about the blow up of the k-80 and regarding the shooter Lou Toth my name is Allan Hunter. I was the lead off shooter on the squad along with my wife, daughter and father in law.My wife Debra was along side of Lou when his gun exploded. Fortunately no one else was hurt on the squad. After reading some of the threads posted on this site I felt compelled to sign up and set the record straight. There was a sixth person involved who was standing behind post three at the time of the blowup his purpose was to move my father in law from post to post who was shooting from a wheel chair at the time because of a broken ankle. Tony was the only person who had some flying parts or part hit his hat fortunately he remained unhurt as well. We were all very lucky and shaken by the incident. Lou is an avid shooter and has been shooting for about 12 years The K-80 of topic was purchased new maintained and in excellent shape. ( well was) After examining the gun or what was left of it Im not sure what was to blame we can only assume and we all know what happens when people assume don't we. But any way the initial explosion sounded like a small cannon going off. Ive heard double loads go off before but this was much louder and much more explosive if you may. The shell was indeed a AA I do not believe the base wad had any thing to do with it. The shell was found also parts of the base wad. The back end of shell showing that it was a AA was the only thing left of the brass or what ever winchester uses these days. The brunt of explosion was at he base of the chamber and then blew sideways the side plates were found left side about 20 ft away and the right side a little further away to the right. Now im not a munitions expert but I dont think a single load of powder would do this extensive of damage. The barrel was separated from the rib and opened up like peeled banana curling down towards the the muzzle for about a good 6 inches. The base of the receiver was non existent could not be found. The two ejector rods were sticking out and bent out ward both exactly the same way. pieces of the receiver were found as far as forty feet away between the next trap and to the right of the trap we were on. Now the plastic part of the shell (hull) well there wasnt too much left. It was split in two length ways. and not all of it was there. Getting back to the base wad I think it was where it was suppose to be. The way that this exploded and the fact that there was melted lead in front of the chamber may indicate no wad was an issue and if this is the case it was very unfortunate mistake because Lou has been reloading for many years and if ever has loader problems always asks or removes any shell he isnt sure about and cuts them open .So now comes the question of how to get perhaps a double load of powder and no wad and enough shot to fill the shell and get a good crimp. I myself use a PW and would find it very difficult to accomplish the above scenario with out some type obvious loader foul up. I visited Lou this morning and he cant remember any loader problems. He is scheduled for surgery Wednesday the 24th to have a plate and screws in his wrist Other than that the other wounds are repairable and he should make a full recovery if all goes well. Thanks Allan Hunter
     
  4. oleolliedawg

    oleolliedawg Banned User Banned TS Supporters

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    Thanks Allen for a full description of the incident. Maybe as suggested by another shooter we should check his other empties for a missing basewad. We all wish Lou a complete recovery!!
     
  5. g7777777

    g7777777 TS Supporters TS Supporters

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    A pw is possibly the only loader where you could load two charges of power and two charges of shot at the same time

    I do know that Krieghoffs are proofed well in excess of 50,000 psi

    a small canon going off sounds like the wrong powder- maybe double charged

    and a lucky shooter in the fact that he was shooting a K80

    regards from Iowa

    Gene
     
  6. perga1

    perga1 Active Member

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    Lucky to be shooting a K80?
    "The brunt of explosion was at he base of the chamber and then blew sideways the side plates were found left side about 20 ft away and the right side a little further away to the right. The barrel was separated from the rib and opened up like peeled banana curling down towards the the muzzle for about a good 6 inches. The base of the receiver was non existent could not be found. The two ejector rods were sticking out and bent out ward both exactly the same way. pieces of the receiver were found as far as forty feet away between the next trap and to the right of the trap we were on." What part of completely destroyed do you not get? I think he would have been luckier if he were shooting the H&R BB tried to blow up. JRM
     
  7. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    Gene, I'm sure if a poll was taken of people hearing the sounds made by a factory load exploding a gun would say the same thing? I've only heard one such explosion on the range and it does sound more like dynamite than any shooting sounds we're familiar with. I'd have to guess the ratio of new shells shot to reloads is close to 20 to 1 in shots fired. I know my own personal ratio is much higher on the reload side. If my estimate is even somewhat close, odds are when a gun blows, it will have a reload in the chamber!

    We'll never know the whys, only speculations as to why we think this or that happened. The easiest thing to consider as a strong possibility is the reloader and his reloads. That's why manufacturers say no reloads or the warranty is voided. The perplexing question remaining, why do some guns blow with factory ammo? Do ammo factories make the same kinds of mistakes as sometimes happens with reloads, if there is a problem?

    K gun makers pride themselves with harder than average metals in their receivers, this information comes directly from K themselves. This fact is why some engravers balk at working on K gun receivers I understand. How hard is too hard may be a question needing more answers concerning the numbers of blow-ups? Hap
     
  8. g7777777

    g7777777 TS Supporters TS Supporters

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    Has nothing to do with hardness at all

    I have been on the squad where an 11-58 blew up- and it sounded loud but not much louder than a regular overload-certainly no explosion

    You must understand- for the sides of the receiver of an O/U to blow out- the barrels have to have already blown out in nearly every case imaginable

    Look at the thickness of chamber walls in a K80 and compare that to an 1100

    I am sure of this fact- no K-80 has ever blown up shooting factory shells
     
  9. DTrykow

    DTrykow Active Member

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    Could someone please explain how a shell, surrounded by case hardned & proofed metal, except for the barrel opening can blow up a receiver? Wouldn't most of the energy follow the path of least resistance and go out the barrel? Dave T.
     
  10. JBrooks

    JBrooks TS Member

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    If there was no wad, then the powder and the shot would be mixed providing the extra air that evidently can cause a detonation/explosion.
     
  11. Tom Strunk

    Tom Strunk Well-Known Member

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    I was at the California State shoot in the early 80's shooting handicap with a group of friends. One friend was shooting a single barrel 3200 (custom made, bottom barrel removed) His name was Ed Holland.

    Now Ed was a damm good shot and always was in the top of the handicap events. Ed shot 3 dram Federal papers, but he did what I see a lot of people doing. Ed had about four spare shells of various brands, but no spare Federal's. Two of these spares were Eclipse (only made a few years) these Eclipse shells had no brass, but a bottom steel ring where the primer was inserted.

    Ed was shooting along when he stopped the squad and told us that his ejector had broken, he then just removed the broken ejector and continued to shoot the Federal papers. Everything was doing fine until he had a broken target come out that he shot at. Now he had to use one of his spare shells, and he installed a Eclipse shell, called for and shot the bird, when the gun went off the front end of the gun exploded. There was no brass to cover the ejectors area and the shell just exploded out the side of it.

    Moral of the story is to only carry as spares the exact same spare shells as you are using for that event.

    Tom Strunk
     
  12. Delbert

    Delbert TS Member

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    Actually gunpowder doesn't need air to burn. Leaving out the wad sure wouldn't cause an explosion since there would be little or no pressure.

    The obvious cause is that the basewad from the AA hull exploded. LOL
     
  13. Allen-MX8

    Allen-MX8 Member

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    How can a base wad explode? (see previous post from Delbert--"the basewad from the AA hull exploded"

    Allen
     
  14. C50

    C50 TS Member

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    I was also at the shoot watching the same squad shoot. But I was inside the club watching from the window, also watching when Lou called for the target and seen the gun blow up. I don't know if Allan noticed but the explosion blew the barrel a good 20 feet into the air and landed arounded the 24 yd line behind the shooter on post 1. First time I ever seen a gun blow and don't think I want to see another.
     
  15. Delbert

    Delbert TS Member

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    Allen, did you miss the LOL?
     
  16. krieghoff80

    krieghoff80 Member

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    well guys ... just 2 more cents worth....forget the base wad and reload mishaps..we can all go thru that for days.... every gun that i have known to blow up had a barrel blockage...FROM A SEPERATED HULL..."tubed"....we have all heard the term before.....it almost happened to me....just by good luck something did'nt "seem" right and i decided to look down the barrel after my 22nd shot and there it was...my peter's blue majic hull stuck about half way down.....i learned a very vaulble experice from this.....and 99.999% of your shooters do it, and don't deny it, NEVER,EVER THROW YOUR SHELLS TO THE GROUND WITHOUT FIRST,EITHER, LOOKING AT THEM ALL THE WAY TO THE GROUND...OR CHATCHING THEM IN THE HAND TO FEEL IF YOU DO INDEED EJECT "COMPLETE HULLS".....since my own experience of almost blowing myself up, i have told lots,and lots of shooters to check their hulls.......some don't pay attention (they are too smart or too dumb to listen).........most of the blowups are shooting doubles...because like most of us...it's too much stuff to carry around and deal with.....check back on your own memories and see if what i have said pertains to your experince........for god's sake boys and girls...please palm your empties to make sure that they are complete.......imagine the the worst case senerio.... what is your shooting buddy going to say to your loved ones why you were killed.....or if your gun blew up because of your own negelince and/or stupidity...what are "YOU" going to say the the strangers widow that you just killed.......safty starts with me......and i pray you.........
    be carefull, have fun and enjoy your time left with your friends.....eric
     
  17. BILL GRILL

    BILL GRILL Well-Known Member

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    I will continue to shoot my k-80 with complete confidence. Bill
     
  18. BBowen

    BBowen Member

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    when we were trying different loads in the h&r, two charges of powder and two charges of shot with no wad (this will go in a shell and crimp just fine) developed slightly less pressure than a saami proof load. we shot about 10 of them and they were consistant. two charges of powder and one charge of shot (this will go in with the right wad combination) developed slightly more that a saami proof load. we shot about 10 of these as well and they are consistant. i think it is very difficult to reload a shotgun shell that will develop pressures that greatlyexceed a saami proof load. if anyone has a recipe we will try it again in the trusty h & r. and give the results. please keep in mind we tried all the usual suggestions, bulleye, etc.

    as for barrel obstructions, we shot about half a dozen trap loads with a 20 live shell down against the forcing cone. in every case, it just shot the 20 ga out the barrel not even lighting it off. i think if the obstruction is farther down the barrel damage would occur. i'm certainly no suggesting anyone try this. i am just stating what happened in our h & r. i personally think that reloads are seldom if ever the cause of a catastrophic failure in a shotgun.

    bruce bowen
     
  19. markdenis

    markdenis TS Member

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    bbowen999

    Have you tried different powder and wad combinations in the new AA style hull to see if the base wad migrates up the hull? I know you can use Titegroup powder and it will not fill the cup up, so when you put a wad in it, the wad itself has to go down in the base wad a bit. The larger diameter wads like Federal, etc. fit very, very tight in the base wad maybe causing some base wad migration when fired.

    Mark Rounds
     
  20. The Rock

    The Rock Active Member

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    I have tried to load a double powder charge and can't do it without really screwing up the hull and the amount of extra force needed was almost too much.

    The only way I managed to get a double charge of both powder and shot was with no wad.

    Anyone can mess up but if you load with hydro. You might not be able to know when something goes wrong. Loading by the manual method you know when something like that happens. But then I have never had a double charge on my P/W.

    And most of the top of the line loaders do not set the primer by pressing on the wad base.


    Rock

    Jim
     
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