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"The tailwind was pushing the targets down"

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by Neil Winston, May 23, 2007.

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  1. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    You hear it all the time, but . . .

    Is that what's happening? Show your work.

    Yours in Sport,

    Neil
     
  2. Old Cowboy

    Old Cowboy Active Member

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    Ya' take >that< excuse away from me & I'll just think up another one?

    John C. Saubak
     
  3. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Please re-read the question. It's about targets, not shooting.

    Neil
     
  4. lumper

    lumper TS Member

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    Nope that is just an excuse because and if you do what your supposed to do the bird will break even with a 7/8oz load the bird will break ... even back at the 27yd line with a 7/8oz load the bird will break as long as you do what your supposed to do.
     
  5. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    "The tailwind was pushing the targets down"

    lumper! Read the question!!! Maybe you've heard the title of this thread so much it sounds reasonable. Is it? Under what conditions, if any?

    Neil
     
  6. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    How?

    Neil
     
  7. timb99

    timb99 Well-Known Member

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    I'd guess hairy has it.

    The relative air speed velocity is lower, thus less aerodynamic lift.

    Why airplanes take off into the wind. More airspeed, more lift.
     
  8. Vince McNamara

    Vince McNamara Member

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    Who cares if it is windy. You still have to put the barrel on the bird.

    Vince McNamara
     
  9. lumper

    lumper TS Member

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    Dang right Vince ... dang tootin right!
     
  10. halfmile

    halfmile Well-Known Member

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    Of course the wind influences the target. Bill is right about part of the equation, the target is prevented from rising by the force of the air on the dome. This creates a negative pressure under the target, hence less rise.

    Also when the target emerges, it is sheltered, and as soon as it gets above the roofline, it is affected visibly by the force of the backwind, which moves it in a forward direction at a greater pace. This has the effect of "stretching" the arc of the target flight, also making it rise less.

    HM
     
  11. Trucido

    Trucido TS Member

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    I don't think there needs to be much work shown or calculations completed for an explanation of this problem.

    Put simply: when a clay is launched, it goes out at an upward angle. This is the reason that we see the top of the clay, rather than just the edge. When a clay is launched at an angle like this, it has both a vertical and horizontal component of its velocity. The vertical component is away from the ground and the horizontal is away from the shooters, with the horizontal component obviously being larger, since the clay travels farther than it does high. When there is a tail-wind, the wind pushes directly onto the diagonal surface of the clay. When the wind (a horizontal only velocity component) hits the diagonal surface of the clay, a force is applied to the clay in both the horizontal and vertical aspects. The vertical force will counter the force of the original upward velocity of the disk and therefore push it down towards the ground, while the horizontal component will increase the horizontal velocity and make the disk fly faster and farther.

    Hope this makes sense...its not really complicated, but makes more sense when you have a diagram to look at.

    Short end of it: tail wind DOES push clays down and head wind DOES push clays up.

    Thanks,
    Kyle
     
  12. lumper

    lumper TS Member

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    Ya know as long as the machine is set right the target will fly the same distance is if there is really a tailwind that is pushing the target down it would be pushing the tail of the target down since that is the lower than the front of the target and in all reality ... it would raise the front of the bird giving you a larger target to shoot but no matter what anyone tells you as long as you do what your supposed to do correctly the target will break.
     
  13. Phil E

    Phil E TS Member

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    As they're accelerating on the machine's arm they're taking off like a fighter jet taking off from an aircraft carrier, with a velocity assist. But the instant they leave the arm, they're a glider, with no further energy supplied, using their aircraft-wing-like cup shape and forward momentum to create lift. A face wind supplies further velocity (airspeed) to aid their lift, just like a glider. A tail wind subtracts from that air velocity (airspeed) so they fall due to gravity. Like a White Flyer rock. I have no homework. Phil E
     
  14. lumper

    lumper TS Member

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    Oh yeah ... along with pushing the back of the target down and raising the front of the target giving you a larger target to shoot at it would also cause the bird to slow down in flight since it would have more drag and thusly once again make it easier to shoot but still no matter anyone says as long as you do what your supposed to do correctly the target will break.
     
  15. Trucido

    Trucido TS Member

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    Lumper...2 points:

    I think (not 100% sure...but pretty) that a tailwind will force the leading edge (farthest from the shooter) down, rather than up. The reason I am pretty sure about this is the following: presume that we had a 60mph headwind, the wind would catch the underside of the clay when shot, so the clay would flip over backwards. We would have the opposite effect with tailwind...the leading edge of the disc will drop, making the clay more edge-on and harder to hit.

    Also, a clay with a tailwind loses airspeed, but gains ground-speed. It is moving away from the shooter at a faster rate than if there was no wind. This is because the velocity relative to the shooter is dependent on the ground-speed rather than the airspeed...because we are on the ground and not in the air.



    Halfmile: With regard to your second point, I disagree. If the clay was a ball (same wind resistance on all sides), a tail wind would not decrease the height of the apex of the parabolic flight path, it would only lengthen the overall horizontal travel of the ball. In the case of the clay, the only different effect is that the disk will catch the wind, forcing it down, due to the diagonal angle of the surface of the disk that the wind hits. The change in airspeed may also effect the rise of the disk due to changes in the aerodynamics of the disk (I am not school in aerodynamics so I am unsure). I believe that the only real effect on the vertical component of the velocity of the disk is due to the deflection of the wind off the top of the dome, which does create the negative pressure gradient below the disk and causes it to fall.

    Thanks,
    Kyle
     
  16. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Since Kyle is the one showing the most of his work (though others are right) I have to ask him again "Under what conditions, if any?"

    Neil
     
  17. Trucido

    Trucido TS Member

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    Neil: don't understand the question...but I'll try to answer.

    Tail wind will push the clay down in all conditions, as long as the wind is coming from behind the disk...the more direct the tail wind (parallel to the horizontal flight path), the more the disk will be pushed down.

    Head winds will push the clay up until the head wind is of such velocity that it forces the clay to flip over, as which time, it will likely change the glide path and may even keep it from moving forward in velocity, thereupon making it fall from the sky and lose its height. I am unsure of the head wind velocity needed for this to occur, but I would assume that it partially depends on the shape of the disk (amount of lip present)...but the velocity would probably need to be close to or equal the 55mph (I believe) of the initial velocity of the disk.

    Hope this answers your question...but please do clarify as to what exactly you are asking for in terms of possible conditions.

    Thanks again,
    Kyle
     
  18. timb99

    timb99 Well-Known Member

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    Kyle,

    "Pushing" the target only makes sense if the tail wind is moving faster than the target. Under normal circumstances, it is not.

    The relative velocity of the target through the air is lower with a tailwind than in still air, but its not like the tailwind is overtaking the target.
     
  19. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    What I'm getting at is this, Kyle.

    In your first post in this thread (and in spirit afterward) you wrote:

    "When there is a tail-wind, the wind pushes directly onto the diagonal surface of the clay. When the wind (a horizontal only velocity component) hits the diagonal surface of the clay, a force is applied to the clay in both the horizontal and vertical aspects. The vertical force will counter the force of the original upward velocity of the disk and therefore push it down towards the ground. . ."

    We're going to take a small liberty and refer to "a molecule of air" even though there's no such thing - air being a mixture of gasses - but we all get the idea.

    The condition is a 20 MPH tailwind, and that's a lot, believe me; a windspeed meter will show that almost everyone thinks a wind is twice as fast as it really is. The target peeks up over the edge of the house and runs, vertically, into a "molecule of air"

    . . .and instantly leaves it behind, since it's going twice as fast in the horizontal plane. So how's this molecule of air going to push it down - it's not in contact with it anymore? And the same goes for _all_ of them, of course, just as Hairy said above.

    Neil
     
  20. Trucido

    Trucido TS Member

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    Timb99,

    I disagree. The disc will continuously have wind resistance from the initial velocity and will therefore be decreasing in velocity over its flight path in still air. The is shown as the effect of a force opposing the horizontal direction of travel of the disk. Due to the tailwind, a force is applied to the disk in the opposite direction, regardless of the velocity of the wind.

    Regardless, the initial change from the still air under the trap, as opposed to the tailwind the disk is exposed to when it exits the trap house (not immediately after, but soon thereafter) means that the disk will have to accelerate relative to the ground. Acceleration requires force to be applied, which means that due to this force, the disc will initially be pushed down.

    Therefore, I assert that the disc will initially drop, relative to its original flight path, on its entering the wind. It will then continue to drop, relative to its original flight or the secondary flight path due to the initial drop, due to the continuous force placed on the disc by the tailwind countering the effect of wind-resistance. This could also be understood to be a simple reduction in the actual wind/air-resistance, due to the decrease in relative velocity of the disc.

    The point is this: with a steady tailwind, the disc's flight will be predictable and you can certainly shoot without problems, after seeing a disc or two. With a variable tailwind, the disc will drop down (I call it bouncing) every time there is a gust of wind.

    In the case of a disc flying in a 20mph tailwind, the disc will initially dip after leaving the trap house. If the wind gusts to 30mph, the disc will bounce down from the wind, which is the true detrimental effect of a tail-wind...because these gusts can, and sometimes do, occur when you pull the trigger, and the disc will not end up being where you expect it to be.


    Hope this all makes!

    Thanks,
    Kyle
     
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