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The Kuhner Autoloader - choosing the gun

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by joe kuhn, Apr 6, 2012.

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  1. joe kuhn

    joe kuhn Active Member

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    After seeing Mr. Butler's new auto and after lugging this heavy thing to each target (13.5 ttl lbs is what it took to soften it up.)


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    I decided to finally take Neil Winston's advice and go with a commercially available autoloader - with a few modifications, of course.

    Piece 1 is the Binelli Vinci with a 26 inch bbl. Yes, 26. I shouldered a Browning Maxus with a 26 inch bbl at Gander the other day and was surprised at the swingability. Since I won't be looking down the bbl, I figure I'll go all the way with my holosight and try the shorter tube. Cost is about $1,000 from Bud's Guns.

    Why the Vinci? It comes drilled and tapped for a scope, has different height insert-able combs, different length butt pads, throws empties 3 ft from my feet and 2 feet from my neighbor, and has a large square hole in the synthetic stock big enough to bring it's 7 pounds up to 9 or so respectable lbs with some lead weight. Kind of looks like a trap gun, doesn't it? Oh, and it's supposed to be light on the recoil side, is intertia (recoil) driven rather than gas driven, so it's without all the complications and cleaning needed in a gas auto.


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    Piece 2 is the EoTech Holographic scope at about $400.


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    Piece 3 is stock, optional length butt pads. Don't yet know the cost. I've grown accustomed to a longer LOP. Seems to help me pivot to the target better.


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    Piece 4 is stock from Binelli, variable height combs. Price unknown. Extra high comb is for scoped guns.


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    Piece 5 is the 93A Weaver base. Note to self: http://www.opticsplanet.net/egw-remington-benelli-auto-weaver-93-scope-mount-2070-aluminum-matte-finish.html


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    Piece 6:


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    Notice I won't need a machine shop to put it all together and can undercut the $7,500 Butler by quite a bit. I have shot the Vinci and at 7 pounds it kicks more than expected. Have yet to borrow one and put the lead in it to see what's left in terms of recoil. I should do that first, before actually jumping. I just can't seem to get to the target like I used to.

    Recoil calculator shows 9.5 ft/lbs for the Kuhner Pump and 13.5 ft/lbs for a potentilly 9.5 pound Kuhner Auto. Don't know how much the Vinci would soak up.
  2. GrandpasArms

    GrandpasArms Member

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    WE'll all be keeping an eye on your experiment, Joe. Good Luck.


    Larry
  3. EuroJoe

    EuroJoe Active Member

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    some people have no shame
  4. archangel

    archangel Member

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    And I thought we were going to see the family car. Didn't like the beretta, u smoked everything with it. But why not the super sport? Mike
  5. joe kuhn

    joe kuhn Active Member

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    I changed the name of the thread from 'The Kuhner Auto' to 'The Kuhner Autoloader'.

    Yeah, still considering the 391. Know of any for sale locally?

    The Vinci Super Sport is ported for quite a bit more money. The utility of porting is questionable.
  6. joe kuhn

    joe kuhn Active Member

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    Here's a study of the Vinci. It sounds like I'd be back to putting weight in the Vinci's stock to soften it up. Randy describes the action of the Vinci in another article and it's basically fixed until after the recoil has been delivered to the gun. Then the action opens up. So, this gun does not solve the issue of recoil. Looking more at the 391 and having Tron do the modifications.
  7. Brian in Oregon

    Brian in Oregon Well-Known Member

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    I wonder if you could install a buffer tube for a rifle in place of the CAR buffer tube and stock, then drill an oblique hole in the back of the grip adaptor to allow an 1187 recoil tube to run down under the stock?
  8. joe kuhn

    joe kuhn Active Member

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    Brian,

    I think I'll try one of these spring loaded stocks without the comb (from the Mako Group):


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    and then one of these from the Enidine:


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    installed as you can see here:


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    and then both. Are 2 springs better than one?
  9. Brian in Oregon

    Brian in Oregon Well-Known Member

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    What autoloader have you decided on?
  10. joe kuhn

    joe kuhn Active Member

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    The 391. Not sure how to put my EoTech on it. Ideas? Some think the receiver is a little thin for drilling and tapping. Another option is to cut the receiver and use something like this, jack up the adj comb and go.


    [​IMG]
  11. Setterman

    Setterman Well-Known Member

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    Joe, There's a company that makes a sight that fits between the stock and the frame. When you tighten the stock bolt, it pinches it to the frame. Can't remember the name.

    Maybe have a machine shop make one similiar, but with a cantilever bracket welded to it for your picatinny?
  12. Brian in Oregon

    Brian in Oregon Well-Known Member

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    Setterman, are you thinking of the Burris Speedbead? I don't think it's going to be high enough for Joe, unless he can machine a spacer plate for it.
  13. Setterman

    Setterman Well-Known Member

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    Yep, that's it. I was thinking he could build his own and make it cantilever to mount his picatinny as high as he wished. Should be easy to build at any height he needed as long as the material was thick enough to support the picatinny.

    Would save drilling and tapping the frame to mount a picatinny.
  14. joe kuhn

    joe kuhn Active Member

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    Great ideas! Notice there is a new product from Burris: the Speed Bead Mount. It looks to be drilled and tapped already with models for just about everything. They even have mount risers. This is why I post here. Thanks for the help!

    "NEW! SpeedBead Mount
    The new SpeedBead mount makes it easier to outfit all your favorite shotguns with a SpeedBead red dot sight, or move your FastFire I, II or III from your pistol or long gun for use during waterfowl season. The FastFire sight easily attaches to the mount with two screws. The mount is designed to fit between the receiver and rear stock on specific shotguns. Choose the mount from the list below:

    410670 - Benelli Super Black Eagle II 12 Ga.

    410671 - Benelli Super Black Eagle (original) 12 Ga.

    410672 - 12 Ga. Benelli M2, Montefeltro, Ultra Light

    410673 - 12 Ga. Benelli M1

    410674 - 12 Ga. Benelli Legacy, Sport II, Super Sport, Cordoba

    410675 - Benelli SuperNova 12 Ga.

    410676 - Benelli R1, ARGO

    410677 - Combo, Beretta A400 Xplore

    410678 - Beretta Xtrema/2, 391, 391 Light, Urika/2 12 Ga.

    410679 - Franchi I-12

    410680 - Remington 870 12 Ga.

    410681 - Remington 1100, 1187

    410682 - Stoeger 2000, P-350

    410683 - Stoeger 3500 12 Ga.

    410684 - Winchester XS3/ Browning Gold 12 Ga.

    410685 - Browning Maxus 12 Ga.

    410355 - Mount Riser - 1/8"

    410356 - Mount Riser - 1/4"


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    Getting there!

    Eddie - yes, that was a plus, in addition to the receiver already being drilled and tapped by the factory, but the main thing I saw in the Vinci was parts I could buy and install myself without power tools. Since the recoil absorption isn't there I changed my mind. That's my main reason for looking at an autoloader - to soften up the recoil and not have such a heavy gun. With this Speed Bead mount, risers and maybe even a Speed Bead, I can go with just about any gun I want now.
  15. joe kuhn

    joe kuhn Active Member

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    At $79 from Optics Planet the Speed Bead Mount seems like the way to go. They don't list the 390 but they do list the 391. Here's my 391 pick from BudsGunShop.com:


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    Tron can cut the comb, add adj butt pad, ejection nib and hopefully give me some extra space in the stock for a little bit of lead. At 7.3 pounds it is just too light, I'm sorry. And I can get springs from J&P Custom Products when needed.

    I've been wanting to try a shorter barrel because of the way they swing and SuperXJeff has an old 390 26 incher for sale if a 390 works in a 391.

    Randy Wakeman lists the 390/391 series and the Browning Maxus (Win SX3, same thing) as the two autoloaders that reduce recoil significantly. There's a Maxus at Gander with a 26 inch bbl for $1200. Parts are not as available as the 391, but the recoil reduction is supposed to be great. Browning service is poor, but if you find the right repair center, you can get by. Just thinking out loud here.

    I've got plenty of nice options. Something's going to happen. I'm leaning towards the 391 new...

    The Speed Bead scope has a much smaller window dimension than the EoTech, but it's about half the price. Since I have the EoTech, I'll go with that.

    Wakeman's articles are listed in the link above. His autoloader articles and those about recoil and the Vinci have been very helpful. He and Neil Winston would get along if they don't already know each other.
  16. joe kuhn

    joe kuhn Active Member

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    I'd like to address EuroJoe's comment about not having any shame. Well, EuroMan, meet the shame maker:


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    Seriously, I'd not touch a thing if what works for me was available. It isn't. I've shot a gun that really does work: move/crush, move/crush...over and over again and I'm telling you, it had to be built from parts, for moi, by moi. See post at top.

    Vox is Latin for voice. We all have an equal voice here. None greater than yours. None greater than mine. Consider yourself lucky if a stock gun is sufficient.

    Grins, Joe.
  17. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    Great suggestions Joe! Especially the cantilevered barrel mounted picatinny rail and the between the stock/receiver mount! Whoda thunk O that?? :) Keeping the dot stable is key!

    Good luck Joe!

    Hap
  18. Brian in Oregon

    Brian in Oregon Well-Known Member

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    Make sure that's not a film dipped wood stock.
  19. joe kuhn

    joe kuhn Active Member

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    Too late. Buds is sold out of Berettas.
  20. Setterman

    Setterman Well-Known Member

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    A good ole 1100 trap is a proven gun. It has the balance and weight, and you can find stocks and add on parts easily. Softest shooting too. Could add a gracoil, bump buster, etc to tame it even more.

    If this experiment doesn't work, it's easy to sell.
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