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The E.C.'s Bad Decision

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by Hauser, Mar 7, 2010.

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  1. Hauser

    Hauser Member

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    The E.C.

    The problem with the ATA requiring new shells at the 2010 Grand is not just the difference in cost to the shooter but includes several other issues.


    First: The reason the ATA permitted reloads in the first place was to relieve the cost burden on the shooters. I don’t remember the year it was first changed but it certainly was more than two years ago when the economy was doing very well.


    To reverse that decision at a time when the economy is in the tank simply makes the EC look like they are unaware of what is taking place in the rest of the country. If the EC is having trouble recouping the cost of holding the Grand or they’re not making as much of a profit then there are other ways to make up the difference.


    Reducing the number of events and the number of trophies per event are two actions that most state associations would take if they were loosing money.


    If this is pursued then the EC will look a lot like the federal government whose only solution to financial problems is raising taxes.


    Second: The way this was presented in Frank R. Rively’s post the reason for requiring new shells across the board is it would be logistically difficult to require news shells just for the handicap events.


    I wont pretend to have a solution to that problem on such short notice but it appears the EC didn’t take anymore time exploring a solution than I have. It looks more likely they saw this as an opportunity to generate more revenue and stopped looking for a solution. This logistical problem has a solution if there is a willingness to find it.

    This is a bad decision that needs to be reversed.

    Jerry Hauser
     
  2. hunter44

    hunter44 Well-Known Member

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    I reload using only the best components which compare to the premium factory shells. My cost is 3.75 per 25. I'm sure that premium factory ammo will cost at least $5 more per box when tax is included. That's $20 more cost per 100 target event............yes, I agree, a poor decision especially in this economy. I hope the decision is reversed.
     
  3. ebsurveyor

    ebsurveyor Member

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    I need to make some comments:

    I checked new shell prices Friday and they are approximately $50 or $70 per case out the door. I did hear that some manufactures have announced a 3% to 5% price hike. What is the true cost of a case of reloads? The best I can do at today's prices for components is $40. So if I shoot Gun Clubs or some comparable shell it would cost $10 more per case. The Grand requires 4 cases for a total added cost of $40. Now the ATA may want to make some profit on the shells. So... they might add an extra $5.00 per case. Now the extra cost is $80.00 + 5% price hike = $84.00. If $84 extra cost per week for the Grand makes a difference you need to do what I have done: Skip a day's shooting (savings about $100), eat cheaper food for the week (savings $100+), get a part time job (or get a job) and save $20 per month for the next five months, borrow $100 from someone, sell something (my first TMX was sold to finance a Grand once), stay home ( I did not pick this one often, as I have shot 32 of the last 33 Grand's).

    EE Bornman
     
  4. Setterman

    Setterman Well-Known Member

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    Good Points.
     
  5. smsnyder

    smsnyder Well-Known Member

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    More reason for eastern shooters to shoot to CC in ohio vs sparta Not a good decision at this time.
     
  6. Tripod

    Tripod Well-Known Member

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    Iowa man!!
    Do they plan to charge a fair price for shells? Will they have "cheapies" there for $55-$60 a flat? that's the going price around here for them. Usually when you are bent over the barrel, the price can be a bit less competitive.
     
  7. Big Heap

    Big Heap TS Member

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    People attend the Grand for different reasons. Those who are serious and competitive about the sport, play the money and seriously plan to win should be in a seperate catagory from the folks who attend to socialize and shop, as well as enjoy the shooting.

    The serious shooters could then be required to shoot factory shells and the casual shooter who doesn't plan to win anything can shoot whatever shells he wants.

    Let the individual declare which group he wants to join and let him abide by the requirements of the group.
     
  8. hunter44

    hunter44 Well-Known Member

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    But then what happens if one of your so called casual shooters wins one of the qualifying events to shoot for the grand prize? "Casual shooters" do sneak in once in a while & win something you know.
     
  9. bakergun

    bakergun TS Member

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    I think the bad decision the E. C. made was allowing the use of reloads in the first place. It didn't stop people at the time off the great depression. And after talking to one of the people there when the decision was made, is because the E. C. could not get a soiled price form the shell manufactures so some said why not just let them use reloads and after a lot of talk the board gave in,and said go ahead let them use what ever they want( mistake). Now that is coasting them to operate so I think it is time we go back or we maybe loose this event. I am not being arrogant or trying to, but just stating the facts as I know them
    Pete
     
  10. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    Hunter44, you are right, the little guy does win a big one once in a while! To win this event, he must win twice, once to make the shoot-out then prevail there!!

    According to Frank Rively's post on another thread, ammo prices would be competitively priced. What that means when it's time to dole out the cash for ammo remains to be seen. To some, it's doesn't matter the cost, other's including myself, I must reduce the amount of targets I'd planned on shooting to cover the increased fees! Simple "rithmetic" for me and many other shooters. Adding this extra expense, especially during these trying economic times for the average attendees may hurt our AIM program severely! With some shooting families already struggling to make ends meet now, makes this knee jerk decision wrong. Using the great generosity of the Martin's as an excuse to implement extra costs at this time is a bad idea in my view.

    It seems a lot of us have forgotten WHY mandatory new shells for a Grand experience at Sparta was dropped in the first place? Has attendance at the Grand American improved that much since that decision was made? Certainly the economic standard today is as bad, really worse for most, as the day our EC made that decision? For those that the increased costs won't matter regardless, more power to you people, if it hinders our games growth, shame on all of you!

    I agree with my friend Carl Chadwell and Jerry Hauser with their usual common sense approach to a problem!!

    Gene Hapney (Vail,AZ)
     
  11. crusha

    crusha TS Member

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    The word I would use to describe the ATA decision is - cynical.


    They have accepted that they will never have more than 2,000 people at the Grand ever again - and they have cynically chosen to try to make as much money out of those 2,000 people as possible.


    Acolytes like Pat Ireland will say "Reloads didn't help attendance, so we're doing away with it." Dismissed with a mere "wave of the hand" is the question of how much worse attendance would have been without reloads in the first place.


    Well, I think we're about to find out the answer to that question.


    The Martins made a very generous gift for the betterment of the sport. They didn't need ATA to muck it up for them.


    Bad move, ATA.


    Dr. Longshot may be an ungrammatical, fact-challenged hack - but that still doesn't mean the ATA is right on this.
     
  12. RLC323

    RLC323 Member

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    The subject of cost all boils down to your perspective. If you have lots of money and do not mind spending it, then you are likely one of the posters who states you do not care if new shells are mandatory for all events.

    Those on a strict budget that who are scraping together the cash to compete at the Grand feel this no reloads rule is just another slap in the face. Remember the target year change that put lots of these same less affluent folks at a disadvantage?

    An organization that continues to devise its rules only from the perspective of the wealthy, is doomed to have nothing but wealthy members left. The ATA is nearly there at this point in time. It is almost as if we are goverened by the motorhome set, so enamored by the elite "All-American" shooters of this sport they make every effort to rid the shoots of the unknown riff-raff who could possibly win something from their heralded "big-dogs."

    I used to stand up for Sparta, but I can not blame any working man for heading instead to Ohio.
     
  13. KEYBEAR

    KEYBEAR Active Member

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    Why not make it mandatory that all registerd targets must be shot with New Shells all year . Only Win AA,S and the like no cheap shells .

    Lets just finish this thing off now .

    RLC 323 All a person needs to do is look around we are in bad shape . Anything to lower cost is a good thing and will help attendance .

    Now just think about all the guys planing the trip to the grand . Alot have been buying shot-powder-and wads all winter because they can shoot reloads at the grand and save alittle money . Now not only are the reloads not needed but useless(at the grand) . Sure you can use them at practice or small shoots but you already have the money in them . So now you can save to buy new shells shoot less targets and cut your trip short by a day or two .
     
  14. Unknown1

    Unknown1 Well-Known Member

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    When the ruling body becomes the Ammo Nazis it's time to leave.

    Bye, Bye ATA

    MK
     
  15. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    There will be a simple way for many to off set the additional cost of new shells. Don't play the Lewis purse and you will be about even.

    bakergun- The facts you presented in your post are accurate and I fully agree with you.

    tripod- I certainly hope that the discount shells will not be available. You will pay for the shells when you make your entry. Then several days later, you will drop by the shell house and you will be able to pick up any type of shell you wish. They will all be the same price.

    Pat Ireland
     
  16. stokinpls

    stokinpls Well-Known Member

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    "There will be a simple way for many to off set the additional cost of new shells. Don't play the Lewis purse and you will be about even."

    Translation: "Let them eat cake."

    Hopefully, Pat, this was one of your many attempts at real humor.
     
  17. Big Heap

    Big Heap TS Member

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    It was always amusing to read the statement in the Grand program that a "plentiful" quantity of shells would be available in the shell house.

    Baker's statement about the shell rules during the Depression overlooks the fact that reloading trap ammo didn't become common until the late 1940's.

    Too bad the sport can't establish a Professional status. The basic rules of the game are the same as 90 years ago.
     
  18. PODO

    PODO TS Member

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    PAT - I wonder how many people who are throwing dogs into this fight - many threads - even shoot at the Grand? TOM
     
  19. jbbor

    jbbor Active Member

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    I thought it was a mistake for the ATA to drop the requirement for shell purchase inclusion in the entry fee at the Grand in the first place. It was always the case and kept everything on the up and up. In my opinion it was the panic of Sparta that drove the decision. I hope the realization that it made on difference is the driving force behind this decision. If the cost of the requirement was the only thing that kept you from attending, you shouldn't have gone anyway. I never was rich, or even close, but I gathered the money to go every year anyway. Even while raising a family. Sometimes it meant taking on outside jobs to come up with the money. I think they have made a good decision here. Jimmy Borum
     
  20. crusha

    crusha TS Member

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    Stokinpls,


    How about Pat's statement, "I certainly hope that the discount shells will not be available..."...?


    Marie Antoinette couldn't have said it better herself.


    C'est pathetique.
     
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