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The culprit at Cardinal

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by yakimaman, Aug 25, 2013.

  1. yakimaman

    yakimaman Well-Known Member

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    I had a discussion with Brad Dysinger this morning along with the guy who handles disqualifications and classification issues. Kim Nealon was entered in D class singles because he only had a plastic card and there were no scores in Cardinal's computer system. That's as far as it got at the classification desk, new ATA member, no scores, no penalty at this shoot = Class D. The program states it's at the discretion of the classification committe. Coulda, shoulda, woulda, right, wrong or whatever, that's what happened. I've no knowledge of and did not lodge any complaints regarding the other Aussie shooters or anyone else. When I was able to find Nealon's avg on the ATA website I could not understand how it got missed when he classified so I printed it out and dropped it at the classification desk the next morning. I went back later to talk to Dysinger and I mistook his response for indifference when actually he didn't have much information on it at all and was pretty preoccupied with his own thoughts regarding the death of a close friend.(Leo) I started the thread here as I genuinely thought cheating was taking place being ignored or condoned by shoot management. I was incorrect. I don't know exactly what, if anything was done about the D class win on Tuesday but all the shooters involved were subsequently reclassified and moved to the appropriate yardage. Young Mr. Iles gave up his wins/awards as well. Errors were made, errors were corrected.

    The threat..... there were a lot of negative comments made on my thread - a few by me, a lot by others. The people in charge said they don't read this stuff at all but some staff members do and one got mad, got defensive and decided to confront me. I don't think anyone except the two of us heard a word that was said so even if I wanted to make a complaint to LE or ATA about it, it's just a "he said, I said" issue that wouldn't go anywhere or do anything other than escalate hard feelings. It got talked out this morning, no further action by me.

    So,who's the culprit? There's certainly more than one... an antiquated computer system at ATA and shoot venues that leaves the classification people without enough info to effectively do their job; swamped classification desks leaving classifiers little time to really look at records even if they were available, registration and classification rules that leave anything up to "discretion" as issues then become subjective and inconsitent. Me, for not taking more time to talk to shoot management before blowing my top and last but certainly not least, this forum which like all internet forums allows us to sit at our computer and send out vitriol that we wouldn't think of doing in person.

    That's it, the shoot's over, the motorhome is packed up and we're looking for the next place to head to. All is good, new slate for next year.
     
  2. Aussie Dan

    Aussie Dan Member

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    That sounds like the most correct post I have seen all week.

    I'm sure some Aussies will be back again next year. From all other accounts they had a great time!

    Hopefully I can join them someday!
     
  3. rooferbob

    rooferbob Active Member

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    I agree with Don on this one. Yak , you are the one who started all these negative threads and got everyone going on this topic. Yes this is a gossip site for some and you certainly did fuel the fire without all the facts.
    Rooferbob
     
  4. 2llc

    2llc Well-Known Member

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    Keep in mind, things are only started if someone responds... Often there are things best ignored....... Larry
     
  5. scott calhoun

    scott calhoun Well-Known Member

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    I couldn't disagree more with this statement . . .

    "So,who's the culprit? There's certainly more than one... an antiquated computer system at ATA and shoot venues that leaves the classification people without enough info to effectively do their job;"

    There is nothing about the ATA computer system that made this problem happen. The rulebook is clear that everyone is expected to have an up-to-date average card. A computer system is not needed for that.

    I've been to a lot of shoots, and with the exception of the local club shoots, most of them use the "computer" to check my average and determine classification. And that's just plain wrong. It can't be used standalone, I believe the classifier has an obligation to check the paper card even if he has scores from the computer, especially when we all know that scores are not updated into the computer instantaneously.

    Consider how this would have turned out differently if those shooters had approached the classification table with their blue card AND a paper average card. Or if the classifier had told the shooters he couldn't classify them without a paper average card.

    Scott
     
  6. birdogs

    birdogs TS Member

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    "So,who's the culprit? ............ but certainly not least, this forum which like all internet forums allows us to sit at our computer and send out vitriol that we wouldn't think of doing in person."

    This is the stupidest comment of all. It is remarkably like Piers Morgan blaming the gun for the shooting death of that Australioan college student.

    This forum is a blank page. This "almost" apology falls flat in light of the above remark. Yakimaman seeks to deflect some of the blame for his childish outburst on to the availability to post his drivel on this blank page.
     
  7. 9point3

    9point3 Well-Known Member

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    Scott, I agree with you, as the rules are written the responsibility is on the shooter to have is card up to date and available.

    I do think that in today's day and age, the classifier's computer should be linked to the ATA database so the most recent scores could be verified. (I always assumed that they were, I just learned recently that they are not)
     
  8. scott calhoun

    scott calhoun Well-Known Member

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    9P3 -

    I'll point out again . . .

    - Not all clubs have computers, so they can't use the ATA database to lookup scores. This would also mean they don't have the ability to upload them in real-time.

    This makes the use of the ATA database as the absolute source of classification data impossible.

    I am the ATA coordinator for our small club. We have four shoots a year, and because we are a steel-only facility we generally just have club members show up for the shoot. Generally we have 10-12 shooters at our shoots, and usually we just shoot 100 singles (targets only). We had a shoot on Sunday, August 4 and I mailed the results to the ATA on Monday, August 5. One of the shooters from that shoot recorded his 1,000th singles target for the year, but when he showed up at the Grand to classify they told him he had to shoot penalty because he didn't have enough targets. He produced his paper card and was able to shoot in the proper class.

    The point of this is that there is no way that small clubs such as ours are going to be willing to spend the money to purchase the required computer equipment to be able to directly interface with the ATA database. And there are a lot of clubs like this. And even if a solution is developed to allow direct interface, if only 60-70-80% of clubs participate that won't eliminate the need for the paper card.

    Scott
     
  9. grntitan

    grntitan Well-Known Member

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    1. All 16 yard, Handicap and Doubles scores are required to be accurately and legibly entered on each member’s Average Card in the spaces provided at the completion of each registered and/or tournament event.<br>
    2. It is the duty of each ATA member to record all wins and ties in 16 yard and Doubles events on his/her Average Card. The intent of this rule is to properly inform classification and handicap committees of prior wins and ties in 16 Yard and Doubles events.
    Failure of any member to strictly comply with these rules may lead to penalty classification, disqualification and/or suspension from membership in the ATA.
     
  10. 9point3

    9point3 Well-Known Member

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    Scott,

    Sure there are lots of small clubs that don't have computers but there are many large clubs such as the Cardinal that do. The implementation of technology is a slow process and I wouldn't expect changes overnight but why hamstring the clubs that embrace change by throwing up a red herring? I have never advocated eliminating the paper card but there could be a time that the card might not be needed at larger shoots or venues where computer(s) and internet is available.
     
  11. W.P.T.

    W.P.T. TS Member

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    I found a very simple solution to all of the confusion many years ago ... I quit shooting everything except handicap, no more problem ... WPT ... (YAC) ...
     
  12. 1oldtimer

    1oldtimer TS Member

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    It was good to see that the errors were corrected before the shoot was over. This should be a lesson for all of us.

    Clyde
     
  13. scott calhoun

    scott calhoun Well-Known Member

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    9P3 -

    Sure. Just answer this question . . .

    If Cardinal (or other large venues) has computers and are tied into the ATA database, how does that solve the problem of a guy that shoots at BFE Gun Club, a club that doesn't have computers and uses snail mail to submit their scores?

    Does that mean that the classifier will get the majority of the classification correct (which is exactly what happened at Cardinal), and that is OK?

    Scott
     
  14. 9point3

    9point3 Well-Known Member

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    It is obvious that you have a computer, Submit the results Sunday night since you only have a few shooters it will only take a few minutes, Prolly less time than filling out the paperwork and snail mailing it.

    But instead, you want to force a person in Sparta to type in all the data for you.

    Why do you want to fight making things better and more efficient?

    You remind me of a group of guys in Iowa where they have no plumbing and cobweb infested out houses at their club and they wonder why they don't have the numbers they had 40 years ago.
     
  15. oleolliedawg

    oleolliedawg Banned User Banned TS Supporters

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    I haven't filled out my card for many years. "Just put me in AA" works fine at the classifying table except at the SD where my best friend TD puts me in AAA. I'll bet he got angry when I tied for high in AAA Preliminary Singles!!
     
  16. BigM-Perazzi

    BigM-Perazzi Well-Known Member

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    Paper cards with correct scores just like the ATA rules REQUIRE!

    I've been to shoots where they send me off to calculate average on card before classification.

    I don't see an excuse for what happened.
     
  17. 870

    870 Well-Known Member

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    9point3:

    Having live info sure would not hurt, but just like with the currect database download, good classifying REQUIRES more than looking at the computer screen. You have to ask questions and think about things, know the rules, and know what the particular shoot program says.

    If any culprits are to be determined here, somebody has to figure out what questions were asked, how they were answered, and what other info was offered, if any. We may never know for sure.
     
  18. senior smoke

    senior smoke Well-Known Member

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    I learned a long time ago to just worry about my self at a shoot. Could care less where they classify any one else. I was taught as a kid not to point fingers at others as your finger will eventually point back to you. This game is meant to be fun and maybe once in a great while win a trophy or some extra cash to offset the entrance fees and ammunition. Just my opinion.
    Steve Balistreri
    Wauwatosa Wisconsin
     
  19. scott calhoun

    scott calhoun Well-Known Member

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    9P3 -

    You've misinterpreted my posts. I'm not fighting anything. I've been involved with technology (it's my career) my entire life and don't have any problem with making technological advances that make things easier.

    However, I also have the experience to know that without 100 percent adherence (and that's extremely difficult to achieve), there has to be an alternative way to keep things running. I believe that if something like this is made mandatory, there will be some clubs (and as a result, some shooters) that stop shooting ATA targets because it's either too expensive or to complicated.

    As I pointed out in prior posts, there is already electronic posting of scores - the ATA staff is not entering all scores - so there is no need to advocate electronic score posting as it's already a reality. But it's only a reality for clubs that have software that generate the electronic files in the proper format. I have no idea what percentage of scores come to the ATA that way.

    I still haven't heard a solution regarding how to handle the problem of scores that are not sent to the ATA in real-time.

    Scott
     
  20. oleolliedawg

    oleolliedawg Banned User Banned TS Supporters

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    APRICE, never happen. Longshorts is a pretender but the 'dawg is the real deal!!