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The BarraKuhna and vision discussion

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by joe kuhn, Aug 18, 2011.

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  1. joe kuhn

    joe kuhn Furry Lives Matter TS Supporters

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    Turned the scope mount around to bring it closer to my eye and increase the field of view. Works well. Was worried about it bumping my nose, but it doesn't.

    In my opinion, the most important part of a gun is the vision part for two reasons:

    1) The skill of trap shooting is a visual skill. I sum it up like this - keep your eyes on the target and fire when the gun comes across where you are looking. Anything that supports your ability to do that is good, anything that works against that has to be overcome. This gun supports the skill in several ways. The scope is mounted well over the bbl. When the gun is held even, the bbl is on the edge of the trap house giving an unobstructed field of view for any target angle. There's no barrel in the way. It also puts the visual cues about the gun in front of the one dominant eye. This leads to my second reason.

    2) I've had problems with cross firing. You cannot cross fire with this gun because the non-dominant eye can only see the target. There's no rib, barrel or bead to see. In short order your brain gives up on the wrong approach and you focus solely on seeing the target with both eyes, and firing when the gun or the red reticle comes across the target.


    joekuhn_2008_030343.jpg
     
  2. oletymer

    oletymer Member

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    While I would not use your gun I have to admire your efforts.
     
  3. joe kuhn

    joe kuhn Furry Lives Matter TS Supporters

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    Thanks. Lately it seems I have no choice. Scores go down dramatically when the cross fire bug bites (regular rib).
     
  4. wolfram

    wolfram Well-Known Member

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    Joe,

    As I have said before, I am impressed with your innovative approch to the problem of crossfiring. But I have to dissagree with your statement #2. I think crossfiring is still likely and specifically because the non-dom eye does see the target. There are many people that flat out refuse to believe this but there are many of us that don't reference any part of the barrel/bead/rib when firing at the target (these devices are referenced on the set up only) and cross firing can and does occur because the brain is getting something like false target position from the non dom eye. It happens so fast that you actually need a video and slow motion to spot it but when it does happen you realize that you weren't seeing the target normally. I think the same could happen even though there is a reticle in the target picture that the dominant eye is working on.

    Now all that being said, I truly hope you have found the cure for your particular case of the crossfires. At any rate keep us posted with your results.
     
  5. BROWNST100

    BROWNST100 Member

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    Joe..your efforts are to be applauded. You are trying to overcome and to shoot better scores.

    Now...shake everyone up by wearing a tin foil hat and mutter to yourself when you take to the line. That should shake em up.

    Vern
     
  6. miketmx

    miketmx Well-Known Member

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    Joe, I very much appreciate your efforts on this crossfiring topic. I prefer the terminology of 'On Shoulder Eye' or 'Off Shoulder Eye' because I don't know which eye is dominate for you?

    Wolfram wrote "there are many of us that don't reference any part of the barrel/bead/rib when firing at the target (these devices are referenced on the set up only) and cross firing can and does occur because the brain is getting something like false target position from the non dom eye"

    I am supposedly right eye dominate and I shoot right handed and I use the Uni-Dot hooded fiber optic front bead which cannot be seen with my left eye. If my left eye locks on a left angle target I am totally unaware of the fiber optic bead and probably only see the black hood of the Uni-Dot. When my right eye is in control, I am usually aware of the target and the fiber optic front bead. I continue to shoot with both eyes open but I try to compensate with a gun hold position that keeps the right eye in control.
     
  7. sliverbulletexpress

    sliverbulletexpress TS Member

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    There is crossfiring where your off side eye sees and uses the bead and there is also crossfiring where the off eye locks onto the target. If you have the second kind of crossfiring nothing short of blocking off or closing your off side eye will help. The first kind is easier to fix. I have the second kind but it comes and goes but will reliably show up if I get fatigued.
     
  8. perga1

    perga1 Active Member

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    ditto, silverbulletexpress. JRM
     
  9. joe kuhn

    joe kuhn Furry Lives Matter TS Supporters

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    Wolfram - on your false target position theory (not seeing the target normally) - if that's the case and you really don't reference any part of the barrel/bead/rib when firing at the target, then you shoot a fundamentally different style than what I shoot. Maybe you are timing your shots after some directional feedback, I don't know. I do know that when my batteries go dead I start missing right away and can't find my way to a broken target as though I'm in the dark. It's really bad and it's immediate. There's no sense in shooting at all. I don't shoot your method. My point #1 sets up the context for point number two. If you don't agree with #1, then you can't argue with #2. I don't do your method of shooting and certainly don't understand how cross firing might go wrong for you.

    Vern - I don't do this to shake anybody up. I do this in order to keep myself shooting decent scores. Without this I fall off to scores in the low 20s after about 3 sessions. I just tried a regular ribbed gun to test it more (870 receiver cracked and needed replacement). I tried a rib for 3 or 4 weeks. It didn't work. I'm going back to what works - for me.

    SBE - I don't understand your description of a second kind of cross firing. Lay it out for me. What do you see as the correct thing to do and what goes wrong when cross firing?

    When I cross fire with a regular ribbed gun my brain sees the target through the non-dominant eye and it uses the visual cues of the gun through that same eye. Since my gun is mounted on the other shoulder, it's a sure miss. The angles are all wrong. Is this clear? I actually hate describing it because it's such a bad thing to do.

    Thanks for the discussions. I'm taking Phil Kiner's clinic next month with this gun and I'm very interested in hearing Phil's thoughts.

    Joe
     
  10. wolfram

    wolfram Well-Known Member

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    My crossfire problem is exactly what SBE is describing as type 2. I strictly look at the target - yes the barrel/bead/rib are there but they aren't being looked at or considered as I break the shot.

    The folks that shoot more mechanically and use a bead or other sight are in what SBE refers to as the first group.

    One thing that SBE brought up and is really a key with this type 2 crossfire is that the problem rears its ugly head as your eyes get fatigued. I shoot singles just fine, both eyes open and consistent AA class results. 27 yd Handicap - thats where the strain shows big time and the crossfires happen with regularity. Doubles, not so bad but a few cross fires on right hand targets are keeping me in A class.
     
  11. joe kuhn

    joe kuhn Furry Lives Matter TS Supporters

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    How do you know when to pull the trigger?
     
  12. sliverbulletexpress

    sliverbulletexpress TS Member

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    There is crossfiring where your off side eye sees and uses the bead and there is also crossfiring where the off eye locks onto the target. If you have the second kind of crossfiring nothing short of blocking off or closing your off side eye will help. The first kind is easier to fix. I have the second kind but it comes and goes but will reliably show up if I get fatigued.
     
  13. perga1

    perga1 Active Member

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    ditto, silverbulletexpress. JRM
     
  14. joe kuhn

    joe kuhn Furry Lives Matter TS Supporters

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    Wolfram - on your false target position theory (not seeing the target normally) - if that's the case and you really don't reference any part of the barrel/bead/rib when firing at the target, then you shoot a fundamentally different style than what I shoot. Maybe you are timing your shots after some directional feedback, I don't know. I do know that when my batteries go dead I start missing right away and can't find my way to a broken target as though I'm in the dark. It's really bad and it's immediate. There's no sense in shooting at all. I don't shoot your method. My point #1 sets up the context for point number two. If you don't agree with #1, then you can't argue with #2. I don't do your method of shooting and certainly don't understand how cross firing might go wrong for you.

    Vern - I don't do this to shake anybody up. I do this in order to keep myself shooting decent scores. Without this I fall off to scores in the low 20s after about 3 sessions. I just tried a regular ribbed gun to test it more (870 receiver cracked and needed replacement). I tried a rib for 3 or 4 weeks. It didn't work. I'm going back to what works - for me.

    SBE - I don't understand your description of a second kind of cross firing. Lay it out for me. What do you see as the correct thing to do and what goes wrong when cross firing?

    When I cross fire with a regular ribbed gun my brain sees the target through the non-dominant eye and it uses the visual cues of the gun through that same eye. Since my gun is mounted on the other shoulder, it's a sure miss. The angles are all wrong. Is this clear? I actually hate describing it because it's such a bad thing to do.

    Thanks for the discussions. I'm taking Phil Kiner's clinic next month with this gun and I'm very interested in hearing Phil's thoughts.

    Joe
     
  15. wolfram

    wolfram Well-Known Member

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    My crossfire problem is exactly what SBE is describing as type 2. I strictly look at the target - yes the barrel/bead/rib are there but they aren't being looked at or considered as I break the shot.

    The folks that shoot more mechanically and use a bead or other sight are in what SBE refers to as the first group.

    One thing that SBE brought up and is really a key with this type 2 crossfire is that the problem rears its ugly head as your eyes get fatigued. I shoot singles just fine, both eyes open and consistent AA class results. 27 yd Handicap - thats where the strain shows big time and the crossfires happen with regularity. Doubles, not so bad but a few cross fires on right hand targets are keeping me in A class.
     
  16. joe kuhn

    joe kuhn Furry Lives Matter TS Supporters

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    How do you know when to pull the trigger?
     
  17. joe kuhn

    joe kuhn Furry Lives Matter TS Supporters

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    I don't have a problem separating out two kinds of cross firing, especially after getting back into this gun last night. The cracked receiver is replaced and I think I experienced exactly what Wolfram is talking about. I missed a couple of targets and noticed that my off eye seemed to be the only one looking at the target. By the second round that was gone and I was back dominant eye focused.

    You will fail miserably with this gun if your brain tries to see the target through just your non-dominant eye. You will very quickly give up the ship, 'cause it's going down.

    Tweaked the scope to shoot just a tad high at 13 yards and got back into hammering some targets. Felt great. The BarraKuhna is back.

    Joe
     
  18. Brian in Oregon

    Brian in Oregon Well-Known Member

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    Is that the stock assembly I sent you?
     
  19. miketmx

    miketmx Well-Known Member

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    Eye dominance is not an all or nothing, black or white phenomena but rather has relative shades of gray. Some people have a strong dominance in their on shoulder eye and never crossfire and cannot understand why everyone can't shoot a shotgun with both eyes open.

    Some people are definitely cross dominate and must shoot with one eye closed or use some variation of the patch on their off eye lens. This is probably the type 1 cross fire problem.

    Some people have a relatively weak dominance in their on shoulder eye and can crossfire on an intermittant basis when the "evil crossfire fairy" (I forgot who said that) strikes them. I think this happens to me. I use a modification of the D. Lee Braun, Whiz White, Jim Forsbach Gun Holds to keep the right eye in control. I can get into trouble in bad light by running over the top of a target because my rib, barrel, bead gets virtually transparent with weak dominance in the on shoulder eye.
     
  20. joe kuhn

    joe kuhn Furry Lives Matter TS Supporters

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    Brian, yes that's it. I've had serveral folks ask me about it - where can they get one?

    Mike - "a modification of the D. Lee Braun, Whiz White, Jim Forsbach Gun Holds to keep the right eye in control" Pictures?
     
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