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The ATA

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by straightshooter1, Sep 16, 2011.

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  1. straightshooter1

    straightshooter1 Well-Known Member TS Supporters

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    I've been thinking about the ATA and some of the complaints about it since I first joined this Forum back in 2007.

    Some I understand. Brad and Curt, for example. If I lived in Ohio or Pennsylvania and they moved the Grand to Sparta so that, instead of a relatively short drive, I had to drive 8 or more hours to get there, I'd be hopping mad, too. But, as I understand it, the Cardinal Center was not in existence then and there was no place in Ohio to put the Grand. Certainly it wasn't the ATA's fault they had to leave Vandalia. But, I'd still be mad.

    For some, the move was good. It's closer for me and many others to drive to Sparta than to drive to Ohio, so, I guess, I should be hopping happy. There has been no problem for me in finding a place to stay there, in '08 I stayed just outside the back gate, in '09 I stayed at the B&B in Sparta and in '10, I stayed right on the grounds in a premium camping spot. I never had any trouble finding great places to eat in that area, either. I'm not a bar or show person, so, if those amenities are lacking, I don't care.

    Don't misunderstand me, the Cardinal is beautiful. I shot there at the Classic last year and loved it. Great targets, almost every bank was fine and I was treated very well.

    Then, there's those who've had "run ins" with the ATA. I'm not naming any names, but it's kind of like a guy who gets popped for a DUI. He knows it's his fault, but he'll be pretty unlikely to become a big supporter of the local police.

    And, then there's the trolls who, apparently, don't shoot. We have most of them pretty well figured out and, if we had an ignore feature on this board, they'd be on my ignore list. What they say is often a demonstration of their ignorance and, sometimes, their envy.

    I like Doc Rively. He's made lenses for me and I have bought a lot of stuff from his sweet wife. But the fact that the EC chose to part company with him changes nothing in my life or has any effect on my shooting. I hardly think he'll be forced on Food Stamps or face foreclosure and, though he must be disappointed, I haven't heard him say too much about the ATA that's negative. Did he get a raw deal? Probably, but that's between him and them, at least in my opinion. If he asked us for help, asked us to pressure the EC, that'd be different.

    It's the other posters I don't understand. The ones who always complain about the ATA. Why?

    I've had nothing but great experiences with the ATA. I've never called or emailed and not received a return call or email. In fact, Kathy Key has twice returned my email requests after normal working hours, once on a Friday night.

    I've asked them for silly things, like changing my ATA card to reflect "Bob" rather than Robert. Kathy not only took care of that, but she personally brought my new card to me at the Grand last year so I could classify using it.

    I've heard complaints about not getting an average card yet. But, with one exception, the target year has ended after the Grand and all the new cards must be processed then. Stands to reason it might take a while with only a few folks working in the office to handle such things. And, if you've got your receipt from sending in your $20, you don't need the card for anything anyway.

    I hear folks complain about not seeing the "books" or the records of financial transactions the ATA has entered into. In my mind the ATA is a record keeping organization that keeps our shooting records and enforces the rules we shoot by. I don't care about the books anymore than I care if the outgoing President gets a new gun. It doesn't change my scores, doesn't help me with those missed birds and doesn't change my life at all. I'm glad there are some folks willing to take the abuse that is so often dished out here and do the job for a gun. I wouldn't and most of you wouldn't either.

    Target fees went up a dollar. Big deal! I am a trapshooter. Yeah, I shoot a little skeet in the summer, and some sporting clays from time to time, but I shoot trap every single day the Silver Dollar is open and that dollar is not going to slow me down one second in signing up for Singles and Handicap tomorrow anymore than the price of shot going up a dollar or two is going to stop me from buying it to reload.

    But it's the other posters who I wonder about. The ones who do shoot and, yet, seem to despise the ATA. So, here's my question. What has the ATA done-to you or someone you care about, friend, buddy, squad-mate, etc., that makes you dislike the Organization?

    Bob
     
  2. Rick Barker

    Rick Barker Well-Known Member

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    Oh God here we go again.

    I wonder what the complaints were some 100 years ago when Vandailia was opened, those having to travel on horseback, wagon or at best train and the very super rich who could afford to buy the early made cars, would have said, coming from New York, Washington, or Florida.


    How many hotels, motels, campsites and eateries were around??
     
  3. straightshooter1

    straightshooter1 Well-Known Member TS Supporters

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    Yeah Rick, I guess. But this has bothered me for some time.

    I should have mentioned two other things-the money (feeding the big dogs) and pouring more concrete.

    Adding yardage, a 28, 29 and 30 might be a good idea, but it's something to deal with one's delegate about and convince that delegate to raise it in Sparta. I believe Phil Kiner did so, but there was no favorable response.

    The money-the ATA doesn't get any money from the Lewis or other options at my Club. I am not sure about Sparta, but, if I don't want to pay to play, no one makes me. The payouts on the Martin Lewis seems to show that it wasn't the big dogs who took home the cash.

    Bob
     
  4. PETER PERFECT

    PETER PERFECT TS Member

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    STRAIGHTSHOOTER1 AND RICK BARRKER I LIKE WHAT YOU BOTH SAY.
     
  5. Dickgshot

    Dickgshot Well-Known Member

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    The complaints you hear about the ATA are pretty much the same ones you hear about the NSCA (Sporting Clays)and the NSSA (Skeet). People just like to bitch.

    We feed the "Big Dogs" because we want to. We want them at our shoots for the prestige, and so we can rub shoulders with them, talk to them, learn from them, and watch them do what we do, but much, much better. We're willing to pay for that by letting them win all the money.
     
  6. daddiooo

    daddiooo TS Supporters TS Supporters

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    From Atlanta to Vandalia....512 miles

    From Atlanta to Sparta....515 miles

    10 hours with camper, 2 dogs, a blow up swimming pool and 4.00 a gallon diesel.

    Don't care where they hold it....I'm going.
     
  7. grntitan

    grntitan Well-Known Member

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    "The payouts on the Martin Lewis seems to show that it wasn't the big dogs who took home the cash."

    I agree and understand alot of what you are saying but i must sort of disagree with the statement above. Remember, Harlan took home 28K on just the HAA/HOA of the Martin Lewis. That doesn't count any other scores he hit on. Just say'n.............
     
  8. straightshooter1

    straightshooter1 Well-Known Member TS Supporters

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    That's true Matt, but I also noticed a number of posters here who took home some loot (not as much, of course). And, some folks I know who don't post here got a decent share.

    Bob
     
  9. atanut

    atanut TS Member

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    $300,000 added money donated might keep the grand at its current level (down 50% from its peak), but I doubt it. Seven additional bodies went this year. I suppose that comes to about 45k each.

    If you aren't mad at the ATA EC and many others for the decisions of the past then you dont love this sport as much as me.

    The ATA has turned its back on the regulars catering to the pros, eliminating the Industry Class, and not adjusting to technology. Then they made it more difficult for the average person by relocating its big event away from its core.
    Now you have to have a multi-year lease to get a campsite. The average guy that used to show up with a Remington has been kicked to the curb.

    If you dont understand why some would be angry at the ATA then you will never understand why $300,000 only gained 7 shooters.

    Don't feel alone. The EC doesn't get it either!
     
  10. V10

    V10 Well-Known Member

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    2011 Grand Week participation was up 3,179 entries compared with 2010.

    And entries are what pay the bills.

    The 2011 Grand American was $200,000 in the black.
     
  11. straightshooter1

    straightshooter1 Well-Known Member TS Supporters

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    OK, atanut,
    Can you tell me what you mean by catering to the pros? Im my experience, which I expect is less than yours, it seems we all shoot the same targets at the same distance on 16s and doubles. On caps, we shoot from 18-27 yards. The "pros" are all on the 27.

    So, it seems, those shooters on middle and short yardage are not adversely affected by anything the pros do, right?

    I am not sure how the Industry Class being reinstituted would affect you or me. As I understand it, that would be another class made of those shooters somehow affiliated with the shooting industry, and would encompass the big dogs who get support from firearms and ammo makers, right?

    So, it would be analogous to an AAA class where, previously (as in Ohio) AA is the highest class. Wouldn't the high scorers still win the event and the yardage trophies? Short yardage, middle, long, lady, vet, senior vet, junior, sub-junior and industry? And the event winner and runner-up? Just one more trophy or do I misunderstand?

    Technology-the posts I have seen here, and this is the only place i've ever heard it discussed, seem to focus on lighter weights of shot, 1 oz or less, and returning to three hole targets. I don't understand how that would make a difference. Wouldn't the better shooters still be the winners and, it seems, wouldn't the big dogs still be those winners?

    I already addressed Sparta/Ohio and understand you being angry if you are from Ohio or Pennsylvania.

    I'd be mad, too, but, OTOH, those shooters from Illinois, Michigan, Missouri, Kentucky,and, like me, Florida, etc. have a shorter drive now.

    User1-I didn't understand your post. Money doesn't go to the ATA except from the daily fees from any of the options with the possible exception of the Grand (I am not sure about the Grand and extra $ to the ATA).

    Nobody is forced to play options and, in small shoots, I have learned not to waste it on the Lewis.

    Bob
     
  12. grntitan

    grntitan Well-Known Member

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    Interesting facts there V10. I'm referring to the 2011 Grand being $200K in the black. Hadn't heard that. Thanks for sharing.
     
  13. Setterman

    Setterman Well-Known Member

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    The only problem I have with the "entries" thing is this. If there were only 7 more "shooters" than last year, yet there were 3,179 more entries, you'd had best not lose any "shooters" next year. Cause they avereged 454 entries each.

    "Entries are what pays the bills"....No, shooters create entries who pay the bills.

    The ATA has absolutely got to get more participants and they have to get them to Sparta, or this is a short lived gig. In 10 years we could lose 20% or more of our current shooters. It affects Sparta, Cardinal, Pennsylvania, Michigan, you name it.

    Make it easier to get camp sites and rooms, do whatever they can to keep costs down and the benefits of belonging to the ATA up, GET NEW MEMBERS.

    Unless you're shooting, this sport lacks luster and excitement. A separate, new committee should be started just to promote trapshooting. If there already is such a Committee now....it sucks.
     
  14. straightshooter1

    straightshooter1 Well-Known Member TS Supporters

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    User1:

    Sorry to, apparently, be so thick-headed, but I still don';t get it. Do you mean that a shooter, who gets shells from an ammo company and a gun from a gun company does better than those who have to purchase their own?

    I know one big dog who says he gets shells if he wins. X number of shells if he wins a big shoot, less if he wins a smaller shoot, less or none if he is somewhere down in the pack.

    But, he shoots the same shells, the same gun as many of us do.

    He just doesn't have to buy as many with his own money.

    Not sure how that pushes him above other shooters.

    I know of none who have their entry fees paid by some company, but, even if they did, how does that work to our disadvantage?

    Bob

    Bob
     
  15. spitter

    spitter Well-Known Member TS Supporters

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    W. Morris heads the "new" Membership Development Committee...

    I register a few hundred targets a year and I don't play options - so you can typecast me however you like. The heavy emphasis on money in an "amateur" trapshooting association is nothing more than a promotion of gambling.

    In MLB, Harlan couldn't make it to the HOF betting on himself, just ask Pete Rose. Trapshooting has more in common with "Craps" and its sidebets.

    Rulebook..

    Section 1,A. Purpose of The ATA, in part... "to promote and govern the sport of amateur trapshooting throughout the world". The ATA does govern, yet I can't recall the last promotion of trapshooting to the non-trapshooting public... lots of preaching, but only to the same choir.

    Section 1,B. Membership, in part... "All shooters are considered amateurs..." We outright classify everyone as an "amateur" - even though "big dogs" who make their living, in whole or in part... all amateurs, who is anyone kidding?! Why the resistance to resurrecting the "Industry Class" - if its not a big deal... well it must be for some reason...

    The ATA is losing members every year... if they are promoting trapshooting throughout the world, let's measure the success by their results - not winning.

    Respectfully offered,

    Jay Spitz
     
  16. BIGDON

    BIGDON Well-Known Member

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    straightshooter - Well stated and the I think you expressed the feelings of the majority, most of which are not on this site.

    Don
     
  17. straightshooter1

    straightshooter1 Well-Known Member TS Supporters

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    The "Special Events" are, IMO, gambling aand I never participate. But, at least under Florida's laws, the options are not. It is not gambling in Florida if the payout is based on YOUR performance (skill). It is gambling if it is based on someone else's performance.

    I'm not licensed to practice law except in Florida and some Federal Courts, so I can't give an opinion on the laws of any other state concerning options like the Lewis. But, in Florida, it's okay.

    I don't play the options much, though I do at the Dixie and Southern and sometimes the Florida State. I also play at the Grand but couldn't go this year. Small shoots-the Lewis is a waste IMO.

    Bob
     
  18. Oscar Ray

    Oscar Ray TS Member

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    I am relatively new to trap shooting, this is my 3rd year and I love this sport. I do know that it is a rather expensive endevour. I shoot 2 leagues and about 4,000 registered targets per year. It would be nice if someone provided my shells as the "Big Dogs" get. I would be able to practice more and shoot more events. It is MY responsibility to get good enough to shoot with the "Big Dogs". I try my best each and every shoot, I am getting better as my scores indicate, but they are still not up where the big guns are. But I have no complaints, can blame no one but myself. I just go out and have fun! By the way, I am not a youngster, I am in my mid 50's and enjoy trapshooting immensely.

    I will be attending some of the bigger shoots next year, like the Grand! Hope to see some of you there!

    Oscar Ray
     
  19. straightshooter1

    straightshooter1 Well-Known Member TS Supporters

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    User1

    If you are a member of the ATA, you have to follow the rules of the Organization, right? And, those rules define who is and who isn't an amateur, right again?

    Well, ALL of us are defined as amateurs by the Organization's rules.

    I understand that OTHER organizations may have differing definitions or differing standards, but that doesn't make any difference because the ONLY standard or definition that matters is the one set by the ATA.

    Now that could be changed. But, like adding yards to Caps, it has to begin by convincing the delegate(s)....

    Bob
     
  20. daddiooo

    daddiooo TS Supporters TS Supporters

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    As posted many times on here lenghtening handicap yardage is just not possible at many small clubs like ours. We're land locked. We'd have to give up our parking lot to add more concrete. Some clubs don't even have that option. Others on here have suggested going to a 7/8 oz target load to equalize the handicap competition. Don't know what the right answer is but for now PRACTICE more.
     
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