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That Infamous figure 8 bead arrangement

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by DTrykow, Jan 24, 2008.

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  1. DTrykow

    DTrykow Active Member

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    Just wanted to share some information on bead stacking. I'm having a Old Krieghoff Model 32 being stocked for skeet. Wenig Wood. I went for a fitting yesterday. This stock maker has been building stocks for 30+ years. I shouldered the gun and he asked me what I saw. Then he looked down the barrel at my eye. He hand filed 1/4+ off the comb. He wanted me to see the figure 8. I said shouldn't we pattern to be sure. He said no. Figure 8 first then pattern. Lots of threads on TS.com about the importance or lack there of, of the beads. Stacked, spaced apart etc. Not looking for advise just chatting. Now if it was for a Trap gun maybe he would have done it differently. I should ask him. Dave T.
     
  2. Post  2

    Post 2 TS Member

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    Why infamous? Post-2
     
  3. DTrykow

    DTrykow Active Member

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    Big debates on this site and in books, videos I've read about the figure 8 set-up is a wifes tale and not to go by it. Dave T.
     
  4. comp 1

    comp 1 Well-Known Member

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    Biggest fairy tale in shotgun fitting--you need to learn to mount the gun in the same place by FEEL.That's what figure eight is supposed to do;i.e. make sure you mount the gun in the same position on your shoulder and against your face every time. It's TOTAL BULLS**T. It may be of some value to beginning trap shooters but tell me this----how many bird hunters do you know who check their figure eight sight picture when a grouse,quail or pheasant flushes? Also it's almost IMPOSSIBLE to raise the comb on a trapgun to get it to shoot high and still have a figure eight stack on the beads--you'll almost always have some space showing between the beads when you do this. Pattern the gun for point of impact at 35 yds.You may have to add back the wood your gun fitter filed off,you may have to take off more or you may have to add or take off some on the side of the comb--sounds like your fitter has bought into the fairy tale--you'll probably be sorry.
     
  5. AAA 27 AAA

    AAA 27 AAA TS Member

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    The FIGURE 8 is simply a point of reference and measurement so that each shot can be duplicated. Once experienced enough with the feel of the mount and a bunch of shooting, one could simply take the beads off the gun entirely. I'm certainly not at that point, and probably never will. But, I do know my purpose for stacking the beads in a certain way is a reference to know my gun is mounted correctly. Shooting quail, grouse and dove and comparing that to trap is like comparing golf with baseball. They have a lot in common but they do not compliment one another, and their fundamentals are not the same.
     
  6. Jim101

    Jim101 Active Member

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    WOW Comp1, Glad you cleared that up. I'm sure you will provide some non-anecdotal evidence that will prove your authoritative stance on stock fitting should be given more than say 20 seconds of attention.





    Jim
     
  7. Shooting Coach

    Shooting Coach Well-Known Member

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    I have used the "space eight" reference for many years. I will set the comb so there is a business card's space between the mid and front bead, then go fine tune the gun (if needed). My K-80 (O/U T/F rib) has 60/40, the Cynergy backup has 70/30, and the Remmy 870 Comp I just mailed off to a buyer today had around 80/20.

    This means the three guns' Points of Impact were within 6", and any could be shot well. The K-80 O/U is used for everything but ATA singles.

    I personally prefer a gun that shoots high, even for Skeet and Sporting. If I am seeing the mid bead superimposed on the front bead, I want to peek to get the reference point I am used to. (not good)

    Most trainers agree that beads should be present for a reference point. This assumes one has the idea of looking at the target locked in their hard drive. If you are looking at your beads after you call for the target, STOP IT RIGHT NOW!!!
     
  8. superxjeff

    superxjeff Active Member

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    The front bead is the killer of targets not the eye. That is what is says in Daro Handy's book. He is a little known shooter that holds this silly record in trapshoting called a long run from the 27 yard line. 505 or 515 straight from the 27 yard line. What does he know? Just think if he would have had the advice of you guys!!! Jeff
     
  9. Brian in Oregon

    Brian in Oregon Well-Known Member

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    It's real simple....<br>
    <br>
    If the gun doesn't fit, you need the '8'.

    If the gun fits, the '8' isn't needed whatsoever.
     
  10. Big Al 29

    Big Al 29 TS Member

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    Super X. Are you saying Daro advises shooters TOO use the front bead?

    I am having a had time understanding what Daro was saying.

    Thanks!!
     
  11. Quack Shot

    Quack Shot Active Member

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    Shoot some paper first! You can always take off a little more wood.
     
  12. Shooting Coach

    Shooting Coach Well-Known Member

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    Dear Piddy

    What you said about ignoring stock fit is something many folks do. A good friend has bought a new Skeet gun, and had it fitted with an adj comb and buttplate becaseu it does not fit him. After going to the two stockfitters in this area, his gun is so rude as to not only shoot so low he cannot hit a target, it also kicks the taste out of his mouth. We will see what we can do with it this Saturday. I am going to rough it in using "space eight". Then we will fine tune it on paper.

    Gunsmiths and dealers(have been both) ARE dumb. There HAS to be a better way to make a living. Oh, I forgot. I LOVE this business. Yeah, right! LOL
     
  13. country gentleman

    country gentleman Member

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    The Wenig guys have worked on enough K-32s to know that a fig 8 and a #4 hangar will give you a 60/40 POI off a skeet rib. Hence the comment"fig 8 first, then pattern." The gun is designed to produce this result. Anybody who has ever worked on these guns knows this and doesnt have to guess, on this particular gun. Wenig is trying to save this customer a little time and money while being as efficient as possible. On many other guns, you would pattern test before fig8. Trust the pro that you are paying. They dont have a good reputation by accident. Todd Nelson
     
  14. kelly andersen

    kelly andersen TS Member

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    How many people actually even notice a bead when shooting?? I watch the target and dont even see the bead when shooting. some times I think to much is made of the small stuff, I know it matters when fitting a gun, but I dont think alot of people notice the basic stuff when the shooting starts.
     
  15. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    First, Todd Nelson, who posted above is perhaps the most respected stock fitter around. His father both fitted several of my stocks and taught Todd well.

    Now- my opinion. A key element in stock fitting is a consistent gun mount. This is something we have to learn ourselves, the fitter cannot do that for us. A specific mid-front fight pattern may be helpful in attaining a consistent mount. When I am shooting, I see my front sight as an out of focus green thing. I am trying to focus on the target. I rarely see the relationship between the mid bead and the front sight. I just can't look at everything at the same time. Then, after I get a couple of weak hits off of the left side of the target, I will mount my gun and look at the mid-front sight alignment. I usually see that something is wrong and I need to push the stock into my face by lifting my left elbow more. This happens to me about two times in a 100 bird event. I have not learned the consistent gun mount trick very well.

    Pat Ireland
     
  16. nicky

    nicky Member

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    Dave I would have to think shaving the comb is a better idea than shaving some meat off the old cheek bone. Having said that we all know the bead dispute. I think (then again) what is important is what the shooter is comfortable with looking down the rib. We all know you are not to look at them (the beads) while tracking after a target, but..., they are there and in your peripheral vision. Now if bead target relationship is of no importance then why not just shoot anywhere close to the target and we will all become AAA and 27 yard'ers right ?. No..., you do have to know and have that bead target orientation.

    Kevin
     
  17. Gold E

    Gold E TS Member

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    +1 For Todd Nelson's advice.

    Todd has setup and fitted two of my guns and will be doing the work on any additions in the future. Hire a professional and then trust his experience. It still amazes me how correcting even a small fit or mount error can make a big difference in breaking targets and the quality of the hits.
     
  18. Dr.Longshot

    Dr.Longshot Banned Banned

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    The initial stock fitting for front-middle bead relationship is what the shooter desires, but it must mount the same way every time, as we get older and put on weight or lose weight in the face or any part that may affect sight alignment. I personaly use middle bead deep into the front bead, I call it RIFLE sighting, I have used this for over 40 years and I cannot use any other sight picture, but that is me. I just know that when I put on weight the bead alignment changed and target breakage also changed, hugged the stock tighter and birds broke harder, a loose casual fit will cost you targets, an adjustable comb is a must for weight gain, loss, as the gun must mount the same way every time, sight alignment is for checking gun fit, do it occasionaly just for gun fit, when you are shooting and looking at the target you will not see the beads, if you are seeing the beads you will most likely be shooting under and behind the bird, just concentrate on seeing the bird. The mental computer will take over and you will break the target. I have to cut the stock on every gun I purchase, LOP is somewhere from 14 inches to 14 1/4, also set my pitch to "0"
    pitch when I cut the stock, too much down pitch and it the stock will hit you in the face and contribute to a flinch or raising your head. You may need to try different pitch using shims on the recoil pad, but I find "0" pitch is best for me.


    Gary Bryant
    Dr.longshot
     
  19. birdogs

    birdogs TS Member

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    Figure 8 is a starting point and perhaps a foolish one at that! There are so many variables which enter into the picture that AANYONE with any analytical ability should be able to see that for himself. For example:

    barrel lengths may be different from gun to gun,
    the distance between the front an middle beads may be different,
    the distance from the shooter's eye to the middle bead may be different,
    the size and heights if both the middle and front beads may be different.

    With all of these variables, how can a constant such as figure 8 possible apply to all shooters and all guns?
     
  20. oleolliedawg

    oleolliedawg Banned User Banned TS Supporters

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    Todd's advice is usually right on but as we know not all barrels are straight. Using the Figure 8 as a reference point might be fine with an adjustable impact type barrel but is often too low for a barrel that shoots dead on or even slightly low. As I can recall, not all Model 32's came through with #4 hangers. Obviously, barrel straightness is not an exact science!!
     
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