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Technical Question: fast v. slow lock-times

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by goatskin, Sep 2, 2010.

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  1. goatskin

    goatskin TS Member

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    Going from a 'regular' gun: B- or B-, P- or K-, etc. with a 'normal' 5, 5½, 6ms lock time ... to a Seitz, Infinity, Alferman, Caprinus/Flodman with 2 or 2½ms lock time.

    Where do you (actually) shoot v. where you THINK you're shooting?

    And WHY? What are the physics?

    Bob
     
  2. BigM-Perazzi

    BigM-Perazzi Well-Known Member

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    Is Dr. Longshot using your account??
     
  3. Jack Frost

    Jack Frost TS Member

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    you will now need to adjust your shooting by 3-4ms. If you want, you can just shoot the target the same and everything will work itself out naturaly.

    J.F.
     
  4. Unknown1

    Unknown1 Well-Known Member

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    Don't over think that which does not matter. You'll never notice a difference!

    MK
     
  5. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    Bob, last weekend I shot a custom made double barrel flint lock on a couple skeet targets. Station 4 usually requires approx a 4 foot lead to break that angle. I missed big time with my first shot,led the second clay quite a bit more on the second shot and smashed that one proper!

    Speed of swing and how one acquires lead matters also. For me, lead is more easily seen and identified with a quicker lock! Lead seen with peripheral vision, not via bead checking!

    Hap
     
  6. zzt

    zzt Well-Known Member

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    Berettas and Brownings have slower lock times than P or K guns. You WILL notice a difference when changing from a Beretta to a Perazzi (about 2.5-3ms). I'm told the Infinity is faster yet, and would require another adjustment.

    I certainly noticed the difference when going from Beretta to Perazzi. It took a long time to adjust. I even notice the difference between Perazzi springs. I was 49 for 50 at handicap and my spring broke on the 51st shot. I changed it out in about 90 seconds and resumed shooting. I finished with an 82 or something like that. I was short shooting a lot of the targets. It took about 500 targets to get used to the new spring and the change it made to the trigger.

    I subsequently ordered three sets of matched weight springs from Diane Pennington and installed a set. When one broke I replaced it and noticed no difference, so I'm sold on matched spring weights.

    BTW, once I've adjusted to a faster lock time, I can't go back. As I said, I adjust to faster in about 500 shots. It takes way more than that to readjust to slower.
     
  7. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

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    Your brain needs to be reprogramed when you change triggers, based on the speed of the trigger. HMB
     
  8. PerazziBigBore

    PerazziBigBore TS Member

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    Hap is 100% correct.. But the short version is.. you first shoot in back of the target.. until your fire control system makes corrections.. Then.. it's all just part of your approach to the target.. Only on the really long crossers do I see lead.. Usually.. the lead is built into my swing.. With a faster trigger.. I get closer to the target before I pull thru the target..

    One is not better or worse than the other.. just different
     
  9. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Bob, a normal Perazzi (leaf spring) is three and a half milliseconds or so. A K-gun knocks maybe a millisecond off that. Beretta is almost as fast as Perazzi, figure 4 milliseconds; Blazer is a bit slower, let's say four-and-a-half milliseconds.

    A hard right from 5 travels about (angularly) half an inch in a millisecond, so when you go from your MX-2000 to a really fast one like a Seitz, Bowen, or Infinity, you will need to dial in about an inch more lead for that bird. The vertical correction is maybe half that.

    Neil
     
  10. chipking

    chipking TS Member

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    Bob doing the worst case 6Ms to 2 Ms would result in the need to decrease the lead on a 90 degree 40 MPH crossing target by a whopping 2.81 inches. In Trap given the angles and target speed at 35 yards <45 degrees @ ~ 25 MPH that results in a difference of ~ .7 inches. In layman terms less than a fartskin.

    --- Chip King ---
     
  11. Sky Buster

    Sky Buster Sky Buster TS Supporters

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    I really noticed a difference when going from my Perazzi
    to a Seitz. I was constatly short shooting the hard angles
    from post 1 and 5. The ignition was that much faster with
    the Seitz. I had to have the release trigger slowed down
    so I could catch up with the hard angle targets.
     
  12. smsnyder

    smsnyder Well-Known Member

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    Wrong ! I believe Blaser are in line firing pins like Seitz. Inline is faster.
     
  13. OldGoat

    OldGoat Well-Known Member

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    Luckily, my "cat-like" finely tuned reflexes can adjust instanteously, allowing me to pounce on any target regardless of the lock time of the gun I'm shooting; heat, rain, or wind notwithstanding. Oh, did I mention I'm a Senior Veteran? Best Regards, Ed
     
  14. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    I am just not sensitive enough to distinguish a couple thousands of a second. Remember lock time is the hammer fall time, not the time between when you begin to pull the trigger and the gun goes off. A gun may have a very fast lock time and a sloppy, slow trigger.

    Pat Ireland
     
  15. goatskin

    goatskin TS Member

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    Jim C. .... HOLD YER TUNG!!

    my poor haid is whirling ...

    sky buster ... what were you seeing when you missed, and where did you think you were missing? that's my issue right now.

    I overhauled one of my game guns, with new, stronger springs made out of a different steel with a shorter power curve, and I defatted the hammers, losing 8-9gms.

    I normally swing through most everything, and shoot as I touch something, depending on the gun moving to establish lead.

    What I got made me laugh AND made me cry ... 'jinky' pigeon and dove ... I flensed, gutted and gilled. Crossers and angle-flyers, I missed ... sometimes clipping tail feathers.

    I shot some skeets and saw the same thing. I'd let 3-h & 5-l run long and shoot his hiney off. If I powered down on anything, I go all-diesel.

    Trap, I couldn't tell much difference ... I broke my usual 5 or 6. (if anybody needs lessons on how to stop a gun from swinging too fast, I'm available).

    Ed, of course I'm envious of your cat-like reflexes ... if you're too speedy, see above.

    Bob
     
  16. wayneo

    wayneo Active Member

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    I think Pat is right, and I have posted this before, It's JMHO:

    A millisecond is one- one thousands of a secound....After your brain tells you when to go,, it takes three milliseconds for the fat in your finger to compress enough to pull the trigger. Another 2 to 5 milliseconds for the hammer to fall, and nobody talks about how many milliseconds for the travel of the firing pin, through the channel, compressing a fifty cent firing pin return spring, and is the channel clean or filthy dirty? Lock time is over-rated.

    Now, you take a nice, crisp 4 lb. trigger pull weight, and make it a gritty 4lb. 2 ounces...... there is a huge difference in milliseconds.

    Wayne
     
  17. Rastoff

    Rastoff Active Member

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    The real question is how much more lead do I need when I go from 1200FPS loads to 1250FPS loads?

    I didn't used to think that lock time had any value. Then I got my Ljutic. It may not be the fastest lock time on the planet, but it's sure faster than any other gun I have.

    With the other guns I pull the trigger and then the target breaks. With the Ljutic it feels like as soon as I pull the trigger, the target is broken. This can definitely mess with your timing.
     
  18. Kemen053

    Kemen053 Member

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    Hi Bob, in my opinion there is a vast difference in the sight picture required for different lock times or ignition times,I experienced this when I went to a quicker firing gun.There is no great advantage as both work ,the only thing I really noticed was I couldn't adjust the shot in process,with a citori I could adjust the sight picture in the firing process,with the Kemen,once you pulled the trigger it was gone.If you can do a search on Harlan Campbell,I thick he had thought on the mach 1 and the learning required to shoot quicker lock times. Don't listen to Neil, the numbers have clouded his thinking process(lol),and he did not include gunspeed into the equation. Regards Ross
     
  19. Rastoff

    Rastoff Active Member

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    The real question is how much more lead do I need when I go from 1200FPS loads to 1250FPS loads?

    I didn't used to think that lock time had any value. Then I got my Ljutic. It may not be the fastest lock time on the planet, but it's sure faster than any other gun I have.

    With the other guns I pull the trigger and then the target breaks. With the Ljutic it feels like as soon as I pull the trigger, the target is broken. This can definitely mess with your timing.
     
  20. Kemen053

    Kemen053 Member

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    Hi Bob, in my opinion there is a vast difference in the sight picture required for different lock times or ignition times,I experienced this when I went to a quicker firing gun.There is no great advantage as both work ,the only thing I really noticed was I couldn't adjust the shot in process,with a citori I could adjust the sight picture in the firing process,with the Kemen,once you pulled the trigger it was gone.If you can do a search on Harlan Campbell,I thick he had thought on the mach 1 and the learning required to shoot quicker lock times. Don't listen to Neil, the numbers have clouded his thinking process(lol),and he did not include gunspeed into the equation. Regards Ross
     
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