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Taxes

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by Jim R, Mar 27, 2008.

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  1. Jim R

    Jim R Ljutic Nut TS Supporters

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    Taxes...Whether Democrat or a Republican you will find these statistics enlightening and amazing.


    www.taxfoundation.org/publications/show/151.html (you can verify the numbers here)


    Taxes under Clinton 1999 Taxes under Bush 2008
    Single making 30K - tax $8,400 Single making 30K - tax $4,500
    Single making 50K - tax $14,000 Single making 50K - tax $12,500
    Single making 75K - tax $23,250 Single making 75K - tax $18,750
    Married making 60K - tax $16,800 Married making 60K- tax $9,000
    Married making 75K - tax $21,000 Married making 75K - tax $18,750
    Married making 125K - tax $38,750 Married making 125K - tax $31,250


    It is amazing how many people that fall into the categories above think Bush is screwing them and Bill Clinton was the greatest President ever. If Obama or Hillary are elected, they both say they will repeal the Bush tax cuts, and a good portion of the people that fall into the categories above can't wait for it to happen. This is like the movie The Sting with Paul Newman; you scam somebody out of some money, and they don't even know what happened.

    =
     
  2. Jim R

    Jim R Ljutic Nut TS Supporters

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    Location:
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    Taxes...Whether Democrat or a Republican you will find these statistics enlightening and amazing.


    www.taxfoundation.org/publications/show/151.html (you can verify the numbers here)


    Taxes under Clinton 1999 Taxes under Bush 2008


    Single making 30K - tax $8,400 Single making 30K - tax $4,500


    Single making 50K - tax $14,000 Single making 50K - tax $12,500


    Single making 75K - tax $23,250 Single making 75K - tax $18,750


    Married making 60K - tax $16,800 Married making 60K- tax $9,000


    Married making 75K - tax $21,000 Married making 75K - tax $18,750


    Married making 125K - tax $38,750 Married making 125K - tax $31,250



    It is amazing how many people that fall into the categories above think Bush is screwing them and Bill Clinton was the greatest President ever. If Obama or Hillary are elected, they both say they will repeal the Bush tax cuts, and a good portion of the people that fall into the categories above can't wait for it to happen. This is like the movie The Sting with Paul Newman; you scam somebody out of some money, and they don't even know what happened.

    =
     
  3. Jim R

    Jim R Ljutic Nut TS Supporters

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    This is a helpful explanation of the tax rebate program recently enacted
    by Congress. If you don't understand how it will work maybe this example
    will help:


    50,000 people went to a baseball game, but the game was rained out. A
    refund was then due to the ticket holders.

    The team was about to mail refunds when a group of Congressional
    Democrats stopped them and suggested that they send out the ticket
    refunds based on the Democrat National Committee's interpretation of
    fairness.


    Originally the refunds were to be paid based on the price each person
    had paid for the tickets. Unfortunately that meant most of the refund
    money would be going to the ticket holders that had purchased the most
    expensive tickets. This, according to the DNC, is considered totally
    unfair. A decision was then made to pay out the refunds in this manner:


    People in the $10 seats will get back $15. After all, they have less
    money to spend on tickets to begin with. Call it an 'Earned Income
    Ticket Credit.' Persons 'earn' it by having few skills, poor work
    habits, and low ambition, thus keeping them at entry-level wages.


    People in the $25 seats will get back $25, because it 'seems fair.'


    People in the $50 seats will get back $1, because they already make a
    lot of money and don't need a refund. After all, if they can afford a
    $50 ticket, they must not be paying enough taxes.


    People in the $75 luxury box seats will each have to pay an additional
    $25 because it's the 'right thing to do'.


    People walking past the stadium that couldn't afford to buy a ticket for
    the game each will get a $10 refund, even though they didn't pay
    anything for the tickets. They need the most help. They are either lazy
    or think that society owes them for just being born. Sometimes this is
    known as Affirmative Action.


    Now do you understand?


    If not, contact Representative Nancy Pelosi, Senator Ted Kennedy or
    Senator Hillary Clinton or Barak Obama for assistance.
     
  4. deckart

    deckart TS Member

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    Just curious Jim, Have any other taxes gone up in the last 7 years??? I remember when uncle ron cut taxes and property and state tax went up. On repealing bushs tax cuts. Why should the top 1% pay less taxes than I do? The 50,000+ pages of the tax codes wasn't written for me or anyone who makes less than 60k/yr or so! Why not a flat tax? Everyone pays the same rate??? Cause the 1%-ers would be paying more than now. Guess what bracket most congressmen are in?

    Also, have you given any thought on how to repay the 6+ trillion dollars we have in debt?? If not taxes--what??? I would love to know. deckart
     
  5. R.Kipling

    R.Kipling Well-Known Member

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    First of all, the richest of the rich don't pay taxes on income, they pay it on Capital Gains which isn't figured into the "rich don't pay" statement. Warren Buffet made that statement recently, but what he didn't say was that he paid 100 times the amount in CG's. Incidentally, the rules on Capital Gains changed favorably and significantly during the Clinton years. You don't think that Congress would pass a tax increase on themselves, do you?

    Second, how about we stop supporting Illegals to the tune of $220 Billion a year and put that toward the national debt? Then we can recover the $4.1 Billion in Medicare Medicaid fraud from NYC each year (where one-in-three is on Medicaid). Then we can cut Congressional benefits and business expenses that total over $250 million each year. Let them drive compacts and pump their own gas!

    The list goes on forever, but until we each start screaming long and loud fraud, waste and abuse will continue as SOP. WE need National Term Limits (two terms in congress, and one term in jail....) State limits and voter imposed limits don't work, for all the obvious reasons. Just my rant for today.

    Kip
     
  6. DJM

    DJM Member

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    Mr Deckart - Certainly even you know that the top 1% pay more taxes than you (assuming your income is $60K +/- annually). For gosh sakes, look at the pie shaped chart of federal income tax revenues. It is skewed heavily towards the rich and upper middle class while the rest pay very little. The top 1% of income earners pay 39.4% of all federal income tax (www.taxfoundation.org).

    Why not a flat tax? Because liberal politicians will never give up their power to manipulate behavior through the tax code.
     
  7. Brian in Oregon

    Brian in Oregon Well-Known Member

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    Deplorable Bitter Clinger in Liberal La La Land
    I've advocated for years that congressional salaries, retirement plans, and benefits be based upon the average medians for each of those catagories based up the census. Not one dime more. And no perks, like free or cheap meals and free haircuts, etc. Additionally, no speaking fees while in office. And no unspent campaign contributions can be converted to retirement funds upon retiring. This might help them be a bit more in tune with the average American.
     
  8. jbmi

    jbmi Well-Known Member

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    Proposed changes in taxes after 2008 General election:


    CAPITAL GAINS TAX


    MCCAIN
    15% (no change)



    OBAMA
    28%



    CLINTON
    24%



    How does this affect you? If you sell your home and make a profit, you will pay 28% of your gain on taxes. If you are heading toward retirement and would like to down-size your home or move into a retirement community, 28% of the money you make from your home will go to taxes. This proposal will adversely affect the elderly who are counting on the income from their homes as part of their retirement income.



    DIVIDEND TAX


    MCCAIN
    15% (no change)



    OBAMA
    39.6%



    CLINTON
    39.6%



    How will this affect you? If you have any money invested in stock market, IRA, mutual funds, college funds, life insurance, retirement accounts, or anything that pays or reinvests dividends, you will now be paying nearly 40% of the money earned on taxes if Obama or Clinton become president. The experts predict that 'Higher tax rates on dividends and capital gains would crash the stock market yet do absolutely nothing to cut the deficit.'



    INCOME TAX


    MCCAIN
    (no changes)

    Single making 30K - tax $4,500
    Single making 50K - tax $12,500
    Single making 75K - tax $18,750
    Married making 60K- tax $9,000
    Married making 75K - tax $18,750
    Married making 125K - tax $31,250



    OBAMA
    (reversion to pre-Bush tax cuts)

    Single making 30K - tax $8,400
    Single making 50K - tax $14,000
    Single making 75K - tax $23,250
    Married making 60K - tax $16,800
    Married making 75K - tax $21,000
    Married making 125K - tax $38,750



    CLINTON
    (reversion to pre-Bush tax cuts)

    Single making 30K - tax $8,400
    Single making 50K - tax $14,000
    Single making 75K - tax $23,250
    Married making 60K - tax $16,800
    Married making 75K - tax $21,000
    Married making 125K - tax $38,750



    How does this affect you? No explanation needed. This is pretty straight forward.



    INHERITANCE TAX


    MCCAIN
    0%

    (No change, Bush repealed this tax)



    OBAMA
    keep the inheritance tax



    CLINTON
    keep the inheritance tax



    How does this affect you? Many families have lost businesses, farms and ranches, and homes that have been in their families for generations because they could not afford the inheritance tax. Those willing their assets to loved ones will not only lose them to these taxes.



    NEW TAXES BEING PROPOSED BY BOTH CLINTON AND OBAMA


    * New government taxes proposed on homes that are more than 2400 square feet

    * New gasoline taxes (as if gas weren't high enough already)

    * New taxes on natural resources consumption (heating gas, water, electricity)

    * New taxes on retirement accounts



    and last but not least....



    * New taxes to pay for socialized medicine so we can receive the same level of medical care as other third-world countries!



    Can you afford Clinton or Obama? I can't! (in case you want more information on Obama's tax and spend agenda:)

    If Sen. Barack Obama (D-IL) Could Enact All Of His Campaign Proposals, Taxpayers Would Be Faced With Financing $874.35 Billion In New Spending Over One White House Term:
     
  9. cdconley

    cdconley TS Member

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    Deckart,

    "Also, have you given any thought on how to repay the 6+ trillion dollars we have in debt?? If not taxes--what???"

    You mean to tell me you have no other ideas for paying down debt?

    First, why not consider the STOP spending on social BS you liberals keep coming up with idea. Tell me if your debt starts getting to be a little much, are you going to demand that your employer give you more money to pay it? No you’re going to cut spending or go broke.

    As for raising taxes let me see if I can help you there.
    I belong to a country club that was established in 1949. Many of the members are now in their 70s and 80s and unfortunately are dieing at a faster rate then new members are joining. Because the membership is not full the club is losing about 20K a month that proprietary members (stock holders ME) will no doubt be charged at some point. Over five years the board in their infinite wisdom has raised monthly dues to make up for the deficit every year for the past three years (taxing the members both proprietary and non-proprietary alike). The result of each of these increases netted ZERO revenue increases. As it turns out the increase causes some to quit and others start spending less in the Grill, Restaurant and Pro-shop similar to money investors that stop investing when taxes become too big a burden. Isn’t it strange that when they raise the rates revenue go down? You don’t think this could work like taxes do you?
     
  10. Hauxfan

    Hauxfan Well-Known Member

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    According to the link I put above, Warren Buffet pays less percentage of taxes on his income than his secretary does.

    Even he says this is wrong.

    Hauxfan!
     
  11. tomk2

    tomk2 Member

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    Buffet didn't complain about it 30 years ago when he was trying to become wealthy. If he feels that bad about it, he knows the address of where he can send the government a check for any amount he thinks would redress the situation. But he would prefer to force everyone else to redress the situation now that he has what he wanted.
     
  12. deckart

    deckart TS Member

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    Brian in Oregon and Hauxfan, Well said. I think everything is out of hand and really no end in sight. Why would a multi-millionare spend a fortune to be elected to a job that paid a straight salary? Power.

    cdconley, I understand your problem at the club, but even small trapshooting clubs are going through the same thing. I must say that while neither are things a society needs like schools, police, roads, armies etc. They are still nice to have. If taxes are necessary in our society, why can't everyone pay the same rate? What could be more fair? I think our state is totally out of control and the feds are just plain crazy. With our own country in such poor financial shape, why do we need to give billions each year to Israel or billions to fight aids in Africa just to name a few? We can't even take care of our own people and police our own borders.
     
  13. waterhouselake

    waterhouselake TS Member

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    Hauxfan...That may be so about Warren Buffet, but so what. The income tax system is an abomination and the framers of the constitution prohibited just such a thing. Buffet generates most of his income from capital gains and qualified stock dividends which are now taxed no greater than 15%. Wages, interest, rental income are subject to higher rates.

    No one mentions that the stock dividends are paid from after tax income. The gov already taxed the income once at the corporate level. Taxed again at the personal level, and if you die and your estate is big enough the Feds will come in again for a third bite of the apple. I've been through this once with my parents estate.

    If the government is going to tax dividends at 15% maximum, why would anyone want interest income? Excluding the safety feature, which comes with virtually no growth. Under Clinton where capital gains were taxed at 20% and dividends, and other types of income at as high as 39.6% why would a wealthy individual want those types of income? Wouldn't capital gains taxed at 20% be preferable? This is what people like Deckart fail to understand. Money is like gravity and the smart money will flow like gravity to the highest yield or the most advantageous tax situation. Most poeople are not good money managers because of lack of interest and they are mentally lazy to improve their own financial situation.
     
  14. darr

    darr Well-Known Member

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    Lower taxes gives "evil" rich people incentive to invest money in new businesses that would need workers and products and create the same for the people they are doing business with.The incentive is profit.These businesses and their employees and their suppliers all pay taxes.When the incentive is taxed to the point where it is not worth the risk the "evil" rich people set on their money.No workers hired,no supplies and products bought.Less taxes payed to the government.
    Is this hard to understand.I have a high school education and I get it.And besides,it is our money not theirs.If they cannot do with the huge amount they are jacking us for right now then they need to be a little more responsible with our money.That goes for Republicans and Democrats.

    Darr
     
  15. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

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    If you sell your house, and it was your primary residence, meaning you lived in it two of the past five years, you do not pay any taxes on the gain. HMB
     
  16. deckart

    deckart TS Member

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    Here is something I found on google. It sums it up pretty well. The gist of almost all articles I read stated that in the last 25 years, the richest people, the top 1%, benefited much more from the tax breaks from reagan and bush than any other group. That supports the statement that the rich are getting richer. Why are they treated better than any other group of Americans?? Certainly, the Framers of the Constitution didn't intend that either. I think it is: All men are created equal, those in the top 1% are just more equal.


    "" MM: What portion of the wealth is owned by the upper groups?
    Wolff: The top 5 percent own more than half of all wealth.

    In 1998, they owned 59 percent of all wealth. Or to put it another way, the top 5 percent had more wealth than the remaining 95 percent of the population, collectively.

    The top 20 percent owns over 80 percent of all wealth. In 1998, it owned 83 percent of all wealth.

    This is a very concentrated distribution.

    MM: Where does that leave the bottom tiers?
    Wolff: The bottom 20 percent basically have zero wealth. They either have no assets, or their debt equals or exceeds their assets. The bottom 20 percent has typically accumulated no savings.

    A household in the middle — the median household — has wealth of about $62,000. $62,000 is not insignificant, but if you consider that the top 1 percent of households’ average wealth is $12.5 million, you can see what a difference there is in the distribution.

    MM: What kind of distribution of wealth is there for the different asset components?
    Wolff: Things are even more concentrated if you exclude owner-occupied housing. It is nice to own a house and it provides all kinds of benefits, but it is not very liquid. You can’t really dispose of it, because you need some place to live.

    The top 1 percent of families hold half of all non-home wealth.

    The middle class’s major assets are their home, liquid assets like checking and savings accounts, CDs and money market funds, and pension accounts. For the average family, these assets make up 84 percent of their total wealth.

    The richest 10 percent of families own about 85 percent of all outstanding stocks. They own about 85 percent of all financial securities, 90 percent of all business assets. These financial assets and business equity are even more concentrated than total wealth.""



    My question is still, if the lower 20% are poor because they are lazy or spend too much or are mentally lazy to improve their own financial situation then why does the top 1% need special treatment from the government??? They should be proud of what they accomplished and be proud to pay their fair share of taxes.
     
  17. waterhouselake

    waterhouselake TS Member

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    HMB....If your single you get the first $250K tax free, $500K if you're married.

    Deckart....What is their fair share in taxes? Does that mean their votes get to count more than yours at the ballot box?

    You really should study the 9th and 10 th commandment. Thou shall not covet.

    Imitation is the most sincere form of flattery. Instead of complaining how unfair the world is get off your butt and start doing some things that financially successful people do...HELLO!!!

    Mutual funds own the majority of stock in corporations. No pension fund owns stock or mutual funds, do they?

    As to why some have and some don't or not as much. Life is a series of economic choices. Watch some of the choices made by people in a grocery checkout line. If you took all the money away from everybody and everyone started equal, in a matter of time virtually the same people would end up with the money as now. Why? Maybe it is because they are more driven, ambitious, and motivated.....you, obviously are lacking in those attributes...
     
  18. deckart

    deckart TS Member

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    ""Instead of complaining how unfair the world is get off your butt and start doing some things that financially successful people do...HELLO!!! ""


    You are right, I'll be born into a rich family and inherit it. Thanks a bunch.

    What is fair? Fair: ""Having or exhibiting a disposition that is free of favoritism or bias; impartial: a fair mediator. Just to all parties; equitable: a compromise that is fair to both factions""


    I really don't understand how anyone can argue for what the top 1% is getting from bush and not be upset. Unless you are in the top 1% yourself, lol. Doesn't it bother you that you are paying more in taxes because of their favored treatment???
     
  19. cdconley

    cdconley TS Member

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    Warren Buffet paid taxes just like anyone else did, on his adjusted gross income. If a man has a billion dollars in various tax deferred accounts and shows little or no income he will pay exactly what a man making little or no income. The question you narrow sighted yahoos need to ask yourself is what was that total corporate taxes paid by companies he owns yet drew no income from. The only time Mr. Buffet would pay a dime of personal income would be if he had personal income. Wealth has nothing to do with it. You want to see how this works, put 2mil in a tax sheltered annuity that pays 4%. During the next 12 months you will have earned 80,000 on that investment. But if you let it ride so to speak you pay NADA on the earnings. Now the company that you invested it with will probably pay tax on their stated corporate income. Buffet simply grows his wealth within his business holdings and like all of us will only pays personal income tax on his PERSONAL income that might just be nothing. On the other hand was there tax revenue generated using Buffets money, Millions and Millions. So if your wondering how lowering taxes helps generate income for our government. What do you think would happen when the income tax on people like Buffet do when the top tax rate comes down? The take income, they buy new shit. You know, boats, airplanes, new rolls, reinvest in new stuff. YEP, they grow the economy. But what happens when the top rate is up? Yep they leave it alone and grow their wealth while taking no personal income and paying no high taxes. Isn’t America wonderful. As for one rate that will also be based on adjusted gross income.
     
  20. jamesf

    jamesf TS Member

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    deckart,

    Shall we elect officials that promise to eliminate the problems we have with the 'rich'? Let's only elect officials that promise to re-distribute the 'rich' people's money among us 'poor' folk?

    I think we should boycott the rich and not work for them anymore. If they invest in oil, we won't buy their gasoline; if they invest in the airlines, we won't ride in their planes anymore; if they invest in the auto industry, we won't buy their cars! Let's get together and punish these 'rich' people.

    Jim, the communist
     
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