1. Attention: We have put together a thread with tips and a tutorial video to help with using the new software. Please take a moment to check out the thread here: Trapshooters.com Tutorial & Help Video.
    Dismiss Notice

Target speed/distance in Las Vegas (again)

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by LV Trapshooting Park, Oct 18, 2007.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. LV Trapshooting Park

    LV Trapshooting Park TS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    974
    This is the first nice, calm day in Las Vegas that I have had a chance to re-check target speed versus distance at our facility. There seems to be a lot of interest in this subject, and we certainly want to give our customers the best target we can for their hard-earned dollars. It just seems to me we are getting entirely too much varitation around the country, and I fear the inegrity of our sport is being compromised. So much for what I think, here are the facts for today-

    Winds- dead calm, Temperature- 71 degrees, Humidity- 16%. We used the trap right in front of the clubhouse, as it has been used by shooters all afternoon while we were open. We used the Prospeed Radar Gun (tuned at 61 mpg according to the tuning fork) from the 16yd line of station 3, held parallel over the ground to the center of the traphouse. The trap is a G Model Pat Trap, set on straightaway at just below 10' in height.

    Recorded target speed of 41.0 mph = distance of 44.5 yd, speed of 41.5 mph = distance of 46 yd, speed of 42.0 mph = distance of 46.6 yd, speed of 42.5 mph = distance of 47.3 yd, speed of 43.0 mph = distance of 48.3 yd, and speed of 43.5 mph = distance of 49.6 yd.

    I threw a minimum of 15 targets at each speed to achieve these numbers. I have re-checked the distances as well, measuring 66yds from station 3 to the distance stake, as well as 50 yds from the center of the throwing tray of the Pat Trap. We use the Elipse style White Flyer Target, Green dome with black rim.

    I would certainly welcome any shooter, member of the Board of Directors, or Executive Committee to drop by at any time and challenge these results. I only have the good of the game at heart.


    Steve Carmichael

    Las Vegas Gun Club
     
  2. Old Cowboy

    Old Cowboy Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    2,988
    "just below 10' in height" in "dead calm" might be a little high?

    John C. Saubak
     
  3. V10

    V10 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    3,627
    Location:
    Mojave Desert
    ""just below 10' in height" in "dead calm" might be a little high? "

    Not according to the rule book.

    "... in still air. Targets shall be between 8 feet and 10 feet high, when 10 yards from Point B. The recommended height is 9 or 9 1/2 feet."
     
  4. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    7,848
    Steve, I've followed your sincere postings on this subject and can't account for your results at all, so haven't responded.

    I'll be in Las Vegas for the Shot Show and will bring a radar gun I trust to your city. There's certainly a problem here, and we have to figure out what's going on.

    I'll be in contact before I arrive and we will, together, go through a complete vetting of your facility in terms of target speed vs distance of target flight and post our results here.

    Neil at 651 645 8443 at home and 612 865 5704 during the Shot Show.

    Neil
     
  5. Old Cowboy

    Old Cowboy Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    2,988
    Yes V10, I'm aware of the rule. Yes, "just below 10'--" is legal-------just barely? I'm wondering if perhaps they were lowered to the more normal 9' they might go farther?

    John C. Saubak
     
  6. phirel

    phirel TS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    9,556
    John, lowering the targets should decrease the distance. Projectiles, traveling at the same speed attain maximum distance when launched at around 30 degrees. A ten foot at 10 yards target should have a launch angle of close to 22.5 degrees.

    Pat Ireland
     
  7. eagles11

    eagles11 TS Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2007
    Messages:
    144
    Steve,

    Where are ya'll located in VEgas? Will be there the first of November and would like to see your facility.

    Hours and days open?

    Thanks,

    Jack Burch
     
  8. Old Cowboy

    Old Cowboy Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    2,988
    Thank you Pat, I've wondered about that---I dunno, that's why I said perhaps?

    I wonder >now< if a clay target would fly the same as a simple projectile or if the optimum launch angle might be different? I must experiment with that someday.

    John C. Saubak
     
  9. lumper

    lumper TS Member

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2007
    Messages:
    3,586
    Something that must always and I mean always be remembered when speaking of other parts of the country is elevation above or below sea level and humidity. If you go to the Denver area and try and duplicate what you have in death valley ... well ... ya might not be able to even get close cause of the density of the air and the humidity and ... and ... and ... all the other factors related to the climatic variations of the 2 locations.

    People who cry and complain about this or that with targets are usually those who in reality only has trapshooting to give them any sort of accomplishment in life and when they miss a target they wish to blame anything except themselves ... if they blamed themselves it would hurt the only accomplishment they feel they have in life.
     
  10. pendennis

    pendennis Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2007
    Messages:
    1,567
    Location:
    Southeast Michigan - O/S Detroit
    Isn't Las Vegas about 2,000 feet above sea level? With its extremely low humidity, the targets should fly differently than in other areas.

    I played golf in Las Vegas many times, and I was amazed at how much further the ball flew in desert conditions. I played one less iron (8 instead of 7, e.g.) on most every shot. But I didn't hit the ball any higher.

    The lower air resistence would cause the bird to fly lower, at higher velocity. Raising the launch angle may get the bird to 50 yards, but a higher than the 10 ft. maximum.

    Just a thought.

    Best,
    Dennis
     
  11. pendennis

    pendennis Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2007
    Messages:
    1,567
    Location:
    Southeast Michigan - O/S Detroit
    Jbbor, Avogadro assumes equal temperature and pressure. Doesn't air pressure lessen when moved above seal level, since sea level is the norm for air temperature and pressure measurements?

    Also, Steve Carmichael's test uses relatively few targets. He also used a single trap. There don't seem to be enough different traps, targets, and radar guns to come up with a definitive answer. In the scientific community, this would amount to anecdotal evidence, and not proof of a physical law.

    This in no way denigrates Steve's work. It shows that at a point in time, his targets flew within ATA specifications. At big thanks to Steve for his work and dedication.

    For one, I would love to shoot at those types of targets all the time.

    Again, thanks, Steve.

    Best,
    Dennis
     
  12. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    9,226
    Location:
    Mesquite, Nevada
    This is just my perception of shooting clays in the more humid east compared to the west. Targets launched in very humid conditions, seem to attain their altitude a tad quicker than those launched at higher elevations in the western dense air. Not a lot but enough for me to notice a difference between the two areas. Hap
     
  13. pendennis

    pendennis Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2007
    Messages:
    1,567
    Location:
    Southeast Michigan - O/S Detroit
    Tom, my observations amount to anecdotal evidence. I wouldn't dare use them as proof positive to either confirm or deny Steve's results.

    Jbbo's citing of Avogadro would seem to demostrate that targets would fly further in very humid air. The humidity is a relative number, since the air never becomes 100% humid. The atmosphere dumps water after certain temperature and pressure numbers are met.

    Best,
    Dennis
     
  14. timb99

    timb99 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    7,330
    Location:
    Shawnee, Kansas, USA
    Pat,

    That 30° angle is for ballistic projectiles with normal wind resistance.

    Not necessarily so for airfoils, such as a rotating hollow-bottomed disk, such as a frisbee or a clay target.

    I don't pretend to know the physics or aerodynamics of the trajectory of a clay target, but I would theorize it is not the same as a ballistic projectile.

    And guys, yes a golf ball will fly farther in Las Vegas than in Miami because of the relative difference in air density due to higher elevation. However, it is also true that dry air is denser than humid air, so the effect is lessened since the air in Vegas is dry. On a hot, humid day in Denver, golf balls will fly very far indeed.

    Aircraft pilots are very aware of this effect. Taking off with an airplane requires MUCH more roll-out distance on a hot humid day in Denver than a cold, dry day near sea level elevation.

    Tim
     
  15. old pipe

    old pipe TS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2006
    Messages:
    103
    Anyone who went to the Grand notice that the targets were "soft" again?? Same as 2006, but no comments, how come?? Steve does a good job in keeping his targets within ATA rules. Thanks for the space, pineapple
     
  16. setter

    setter Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    663
    pineapple,

    Each morning at the 2007 Grand we set the targets at 42 mph with the Decatur radar gun, handheld from the 16 yd line on post 3, measuring a straight away target. Height was right at 9.5 feet with some modest varation due to wind.
    Doubles were set at 39 mph measuring the right hand target from between post 1 and 2.

    Why is it that you think that this is a soft target?

    Jim Moody
     
  17. oleolliedawg

    oleolliedawg Banned User Banned TS Supporters

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    10,124
    Location:
    Northampton PA
    Jim, because the complainers shot lousy!!
     
  18. j2jake

    j2jake Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    2,285
    Jim, did you use a angle finder to set hieght? If so what angle was used? Thanks, Jake
     
  19. phirel

    phirel TS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    9,556
    Humid air is lighter than dry air but using relative humidity is not the proper way to look at air resistance and target flight. The proper measurement for this would be absolute humidity, not relative humidity. Avogadro's number tells us the number of molecules possible in a given volume of gas. Absolute humidity is based on the number of water molecules but relative humidity is not. Air at 30% humidity and 40 degrees will have more water molecules than air at 50% humidity and 90 degrees F.

    Pat Ireland
     
  20. perazziuser

    perazziuser Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    384
    We are all shooting the same targets. Someone is going to have to come up with a whole lot of cheese.......
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.