1. Attention: We have put together a thread with tips and a tutorial video to help with using the new software. Please take a moment to check out the thread here: Trapshooters.com Tutorial & Help Video.
    Dismiss Notice

Target Setting - Rule Change 44mph????

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by washandwear, Oct 9, 2008.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. washandwear

    washandwear Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    414
    Hi

    Heard target speed rule for 2009 with radar gun is 44mph. Does this replace the 42 +/- .5 from back of the traphouse or does this refer to off the arm inside the traphouse.

    Regards
     
  2. 870

    870 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    2,390
    Off the arm. Neil recently discussed this here.
     
  3. grnberetcj

    grnberetcj Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    5,680
    Speed should be 60 mph with the widest angles possible.

    Curt
     
  4. 320090T

    320090T Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    3,349
    Location:
    Indiana
    Wrong! It was bumped up to 62 mph.
     
  5. Ray Brasser

    Ray Brasser Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    96
    Neil corrected that. 44 was off the arm.

    Ray
     
  6. mixer

    mixer Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    3,386
    Location:
    Coral Springs, Florida
    How does 44mph off the arm affect in flight speed & distance?


    Eric
     
  7. Paladin

    Paladin Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    4,396
    Some clubs attach a radar gun to a "Pat Arm", which is located directly under the area where the target leaves the plate. This location will read higher than a high power gun will read since the high power gun is operated from the 16 yd line. The target has to clear the house first to get a reading from the 16. That's about 3 or 4 ft of travel maybe.

    Before the grand, Neil mentioned that he would push for the following speeds from a high power gun, operated from the 16 yd line.

    Minimum 42 mph for singles, and minimum 39 mph for the right bird of doubles. The rule book currently reads 42 +/- .5 mph and 39 +/- .5 mph.

    Mixer,,my opinion is that the two different speeds measured from their different locations will give about the same results and target presentation.
     
  8. phirel

    phirel TS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    9,556
    Targets begin to slow down as soon as they leave the arm. A target leaving the arm at 44 MPH will slow down about 2 MPH by the time it rises above the trap house. Targets slow down to about 35 MPH when we shoot at them.

    Pat Ireland
     
  9. oddlott

    oddlott Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    172
    What does 44MPH equal in feet per second?
     
  10. Paladin

    Paladin Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    4,396
    The rule book states 42 mph, or, 67 fps for singles. Neil put a lot of effort into this project before publication. I've measured targets with both methods at the same time and the published speeds agree with each other.
     
  11. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    7,848
    First, the correct speeds from the 16-yard line (and behind the house, down at roof-level for low-power guns) are a minimum of 42 MPH for singles and Handicap, a minimum of 39 MPH for the right bird of a pair of doubles. Inside the house, add two MPH.

    Why? Because the gun sees the birds sooner? No. It's because it sees it a different angle.

    From inside the house the gun sees a bird increasing the distance between itself and gun in a straight line. Say the bird is, by the time the gun nails its speed, traveling through air at 44 MPH. But from the 16 yard line - the bird is not flying straight away, it flying away at an angle. Some of that 44 MPH increases the distance from the gun (and that's what the gun reads) and some of it displaces the bird vertically, a translation which the radar gun is insensitive to.

    That horizontal component of the birds flight, relative to the gun, is the speed of the bird multiplied by the cosine of the angle (from horizontal) it is flying at. Call the angle 20 degrees, the cosine about 0.94, invert that to 1.06, multiply 42 and get something over 44 MPH but less than 44.5. So add two MPH because most guns used in the house read to integer precision and that decimal speed stuff has already gotten us in trouble.

    Why doesn't Mr. Charles' conversion work? Because the bird slows down very quickly, as can be determined by this simple setup:

    [​IMG]

    The chronograph reads bird speed a foot or two off the arm, the radar gun doesn't settle down to a decision until the bird has gone a bit further - at least that's what I think is happening. In any case, when you read a 67 fps bird from inside the house, a radar gun will give you about 44 MPH, just as Paladin says.

    Neil
     
  12. hoggy

    hoggy TS Member

    Joined:
    May 9, 2006
    Messages:
    1,261
    Wouldn't it be easier to know what spring tension on the puller would be at in relation to speed to set the traps. Seems there would be less room for error and might even be easier to measure.
     
  13. Gary Waalkes

    Gary Waalkes Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2007
    Messages:
    1,400
    If using a radar gun were difficult, you would never get a speeding ticket.
     
  14. Old Cowboy

    Old Cowboy Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    2,988
    SportsRadar 3600 (low powered) radar gun; I find that the same spring adjustment that gives me 42 mph holding the gun LEVEL just behind the traphouse and aimed just over the front edge of the roof at a straightaway...........will show me 45 mph (not 44 mph) with the same radar gun mounted on a "Pat-Pal" on the launching plate. Is something about my "behind the house" technique incorrect?, or would this 1 mph discrepancy be just within' tolerances?

    John C. Saubak
     
  15. Old Cowboy

    Old Cowboy Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    2,988
    Permit me to re-phrase that in case my last post was confusing?

    I mount the radar gun (SportsRadar 3600) on a Pat-Pal slid unto the launching plate inside the house & adjust the spring to indicate 45 mph.

    Then immediatly thereafter and without changing the spring adjustment, if I measure the speed with the same radar gun held LEVEL from just behind the house it will indicate 42 mph.

    That would appear to be a 3 mph spread, not the 2 mph as Neil suggests........now with my low powered gun showing only whole mph #s, I'm tempted to think my speeds might actually be closer, like maybe 42.4= 42(rounded down) vs 44.5= 45(rounded up)? OTOH, FWIW.....this 3 mph difference is quite consistent

    John C. Saubak
     
  16. phirel

    phirel TS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    9,556
    John the small difference between the readings you are getting and what Neil and I see could be due to radar gun you are using or even the angle you hold it behind the house. Also, when I measure the speed of the target from the 16 yard line, I an not at all upset with a variation in the speed of 0.1 to 0.2 MPH. The real key to successfully using a gun to set targets is using it consistently each time on each trap house.

    Neil- I was wrong in the post I made above when I attributed the difference in speed measured in the house and from the 16 yard line solely to air resistance. I simply forgot about the cosine error. Air resistance could account for a little of the different speeds but cosine error is the major factor. I knew this, but simply forgot. Air resistance is responsible for the 7 to 8 MPH decrease in speed after the target leaves the house and is smashed into dust by a good shot.

    Pat Ireland
     
  17. Bob Hawkes

    Bob Hawkes Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    3,907
    Old Cowboy John, The different readings you are getting was exactly the reason for us spending the extra money for the better gun. Your low power measures in whole MPH while the better gun will read in tenth's of MPH. Is your gun going to show 41.5 as 42 MPH or 41 MPH?? You have no way of knowing. The $600 gun is worth the money in my opinion. Bob
     
  18. phirel

    phirel TS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    9,556
    Bob- I like my more expensive gun, but Bob can set excellent targets with the low powered gun.

    Pat Ireland
     
  19. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    7,848
    Who's Bob-with-the-low-powered-gun, Pat?

    Neil
     
  20. phirel

    phirel TS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    9,556
    Neil- Bob has the high powered gun, John, I think an old cowboy from Montana, has the low powered gun. Pat is the one with a high powered gun and a low powered memory.

    Pat Ireland
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.