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Target Setting Question

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by phirel, Dec 16, 2007.

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  1. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    I have several times set traps with an accurate angle meter. But, after doing this, it is obvious that the targets are not thrown at the same height. Others have had the same experience. How can two different PAT Traps, with the table set at the same angle and the target speed set at 43 MPH throw targets at different heights?

    Pat Ireland
     
  2. Gunnerandbabe

    Gunnerandbabe TS Member

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    Spring presure.
     
  3. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    If the spring pressure is different how can the targets be uniformly 43 MPH?

    Pat Ireland
     
  4. Jim101

    Jim101 Active Member

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    Pat, If you mean height at the T-bar, The most obvious, But not complete answer would be the traps location in the trap house.



    Jim
     
  5. j2jake

    j2jake Well-Known Member

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    Pat are you trolling? My best guess is machine height in the house. I had the same thing here before I started using angle finder. Found the 10 yard stakes were inconsistent. Now setting with the angle finder (after establishing a good baseline) there is little to no difference from trap to trap. Jake
     
  6. KeystoneLight

    KeystoneLight TS Member

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    .What Jake said plus the difference in machine location on the horizontal plane from the 10 yard stake.
     
  7. setter

    setter Member

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    Pat,

    You have probably thought of this but I continue to have a keen sense of the obvious. The height of the throw plate varies with the horizontal plane of the field amongst the traps, the distance from the 16 yd line to a common place on the trap varies, your 10 yd stake position varies from the 26 yds from the 16 yd line, or the height of the placement point for your height pole varies. In new trap field installations like the KTA (Kansas) the angle meter can work effectively due to the the field layout. I've done the obvious test: at say field one, set the speed, set the height with the pole, measure the angle. Go to field two, set the angle same as field one, set the speed. Then put up the height pole at field two to check the result. And the targets were at an identical height. Now this won't pass Neil's test cause I didn't write it down but wanted to satisfy myself that it was practical.

    P.S. Pleae be careful with your tests as I just read Neil's caution about the very real possibility of numbers leaking from the radar gun. You know, (he said)they can pile up at your feet resulting in a nasty fall.
     
  8. JB Logan Co. Ohio

    JB Logan Co. Ohio TS Member

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    If your radar gun leaks numbers whack it's nose with a rolled up newspaper and then rub it's nose in it! JMHO

    JB=Jerry Beach 8503917
     
  9. Barry C. Roach

    Barry C. Roach Well-Known Member

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    Angle finders are no way to set target height, Period! Throw them away, quit being so lazy and get your TBar out.
     
  10. Paladin

    Paladin Well-Known Member

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    I'll have to beg to differ with the angle finder nay sayers. The local club had club record scores shot, on the second to the last event of the year. Six Pat's were set for height with nothing but a digital level. The speed was set with a Decatur Prospeed. The Pat's were throwing the most consistent (and certainly legal in all manner) targets I've ever seen there.


    Neil may not like to hear this, but the T-Bar has not been on the field for the last three shoots there. There has been no need to. If it's a calm day, you'll be amazed at the height consistency. If the wind is blowing, hard that is, adjust accordingly, but at least you have a good starting point. If you want to get the T-Bar out, by all means do it. See for yourself.


    I agree with the guys that mention trap height and pedestal height variations.


    Certainly with all due respect Pat Ireland, I've not seen the variations from Pat Traps that you are seeing. If I had, I probably would have pursued the exact reason why. If you have identical plate angle, identical arms, identical targets, and testing in calm wind, I don't see how that can happen, other than the reasons given.
     
  11. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

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    Adjust the targets until they look good. You don't need no stinking angle finder. HMB
     
  12. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Paladin- I think I should be seeing what you see, but I don't. I am trying to figure out why.

    Barry C. Roach- I would quit being so lazy and use a T-bar if you will help me figure out how to hold the bar straight, and watch the targets at the same time from the 16 yard line. For our first field, the T-bar needs to be 22 feet high. The other fields have not been measured.

    Pat Ireland
     
  13. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Paladin, I thought i made it clear that I was not against using angle meters. I just don't use mine because at the places I mainly set targets - Metro and Alexandria - they don't come close to working. And now I'm going to drive HMB and lumper up a wall again by saying I don't even care if clubs use height stakes. I think an experienced setter can do just fine by making them look right. It's what we do with doubles, isn't it? What's more complicated about singles and handicap?

    Neil
     
  14. Bob Hawkes

    Bob Hawkes Well-Known Member

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    I agree with Barry, but it's clear that can't work in Pat's situation. Pat, are your house's sliding down the hill thus creating the inconsistancies that you have?LOL. I'm glad that we don't have to deal with such a drop-off, it must create all sorts of problem's with just a mild breeze from the wrong direction.

    What Neil say's is right on, that is until you find the "wrong" set of eye's trying to help. One person who is not sure of what he is looking at can sure make a chore out of setting doubles. All fun, I guess. Bob H.
     
  15. washandwear

    washandwear Member

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    Pat

    I plan to use the angle meter to set the height instead of the pole because it appears easier. However, I will determine the (standard) angle for each pat trap individually by using the the pole and then noting at what angle I achieved 10ft target height. I don't really care what the number is just that it is the number that will get me a good target in still air. Will have to move up or down a notch on occasion because of wind but at least when trap gets changed or questioned it is easy to verify setting.

    Happy Holidays
     
  16. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Alder1- The mild breeze you mentioned can be part of my problem. Did you know that a steady breeze blowing across the top of a narrow valley will set up circular wind currents in the valley. It is tricky to set targets with a simultaneous North, East, West and South wind. At times our doubles targets are as irregular as my shooting.

    Pat Ireland
     
  17. Jim101

    Jim101 Active Member

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    It doesn't take much of a breeze to make target setting tough. Especially if it is angling up the hill. Even a south breeze does some strange things here. BTW, Pat the T-bar for this trap is 23ft 4 1/2inches.

    <a href="http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v337/Jim45/Trap%20Pics/?action=view&current=Traphouse013.jpg" target="_blank">[​IMG]</a>







    Jim
     
  18. Paladin

    Paladin Well-Known Member

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    Neil, you're right, you did make it clear. Thanks. To your point with doubles, the biggest variation in target setting I've seen is with doubles. I've watched long time shooters set doubles so opposite of each other, it's comical. Thank you for the rule of "39 MPH +/- .5MPH on the RH target. Now we have a stated speed. The height can be easily adjusted after that.

    Pat, I've harped about the Sears digital level until the cows came home. But, one thing I keep forgetting to mention is,,that level has a laser integrated into it on one end. Now that things have slowed down, I'm going to play with it on the traps,,shooting the laser out to the 10 yard pedestal etc.,,see if I can learn something about trap plate height to pedestal height,,or anything. Maybe it's something to look at.
     
  19. Paladin

    Paladin Well-Known Member

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    Jim 101, I see you have a 'legal' target setter at that club. The birds are landing at the 50 yd stake,,if that is the 50 yard stake..??
     
  20. Jim101

    Jim101 Active Member

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    Paladin That is a 50 yd stake, But it is about 40 feet below the shooting stations and is useless for setting targets. I use a radar gun and a T-bar to set targets.



    Jim
     
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