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Target Refusal

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by Hivoltfl, Jan 4, 2009.

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  1. Hivoltfl

    Hivoltfl Member

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    I did a search and didnt find anything about this one although I am sure its been hashed over before, Legal target, in bounds and thrown in a timely fashion according to ATA rules shall be counted as a LOST target if the shooter refuses to fire, not talking about a misfire or anything other than a REFUSAL, anybody ever seen this called? Is this one of those if your winning the big money calls?

    I have never seen it called and am curious.


    Rick
     
  2. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

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    They have a new rule now, the FTF rule, you are allowed 2 per sub event. That's 8 per 100. That makes calling the other rule pretty tough on the scorer. HMB
     
  3. Hivoltfl

    Hivoltfl Member

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    I understand the failure to fire rule, I am not talking about a shell not going off, or a gun malfunction, what I am talking about is the shooter calls for the target, it appears in a timely fashion, is of one piece and legal color and in bounds and the shooter makes no attempt to fire, just passes for what ever reason he chooses, rules say its a lost target, yea I know I am being picky, hehehe but rules are rules.


    Rick
     
  4. Hivoltfl

    Hivoltfl Member

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    Thank you Barry my thoughts exactly.

    Rick
     
  5. crusha

    crusha TS Member

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    Rick,

    Simply amazing, isn't it?
     
  6. gyrine

    gyrine TS Member

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    Does this mean that a shooter, if he has the gall to do it, can just turn down two targets out of every 25, just because he wants to? Don't like that hard left, just ignore it and call for another target? gyrine
     
  7. Hivoltfl

    Hivoltfl Member

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    Now we are getting down to it, Thank you gyrine

    Rick
     
  8. Hivoltfl

    Hivoltfl Member

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    FlaLagarto What do you consider abuse? once a year? once a trap? two times per 100, during an ATA event or practice or both? Not really trying to be a harda$$ but I see it enough to ask the question and post the topic.

    Rick
     
  9. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    It's the same as when we had humans doing the pulling. Fast/slow is a call made by the shooter himself, not the other shooters or scorekeepers. Turning down targets isn't as bad today as it was prior to voice calls though. It still happens once in a while, once is way too many for an honorable sport! I've never seen or heard of that rule being enforced since electronic calls came to be? One page of rules is all we really need to see who shoots best for the days event.

    Bring a gun that works. If it breaks, get another or lose your turn.

    Bring ammo that works.

    No gimmies for any reason except a broken clay at your call.

    Mount your gun and utter a sound and the clay belongs to you.

    If you shoot out of turn, you lose a turn, lost bird.

    There's no such foul/fowl as an illegal target if it's in the air and whole when it's your turn and your gun is mounted.

    I may have missed one or two that may be needed to have a fair shoot and an honest competition but I don't think so.

    Hap
     
  10. 101voodoo

    101voodoo TS Member

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    Only saw it once myself. At Auburn last year there were two guys together on a squad who were turning down anything that went to the right. After a referee showed up and stood next to the scorer they suddenly started shooting at everything.

    Funny that.

    Pair of puds.

    Jim
     
  11. Savage99Stan

    Savage99Stan Active Member

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    We've got a high gun holder who manages to "refuse" at least two or three a shoot. Funny that they are usually hard lefts.
     
  12. Delbert

    Delbert TS Member

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    Hap, is that what the rule says? I thought it said what HMB said it did.
     
  13. Post  2

    Post 2 TS Member

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    The "Failure to fire" rule was instituted so that any shooter might not shoot at any two birds per sub event for any reason. Once two "Failure to fires" occure in any sub event then following "Failure to fire" in that sub event are lost birds. Post-2
     
  14. Two Dogs

    Two Dogs Well-Known Member

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    If I'm scoring for you,and your target is on time, is a legal target and you don't shoot and you don't open your gun, it's a lost target..NOT a FTF..
     
  15. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    8 gimmies per 100, or, 2 per sub-event is correct. I referred to shooters turning down targets for no obvious reason, it's still the shooters call only. They get by with it by saying it was a fast or slow target. That isn't a FTF and isn't 1 of the possible 8 allowed by the current rules for real failures to fire.

    Hap
     
  16. superxjeff

    superxjeff Active Member

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    There are lots of reasons that somebody may turn down a target. What if the trap is not set properly? The average squad leader asks to call for a target. but not all do. Lets say you are on post two and the target comes out and it is way too low? I should shoot it? No sir... You assume way too much when you say that somebody should shoot what the trap house throws. In a perfect world all traps would throw legal targets and all voice actuated pullers would throw on time targets. The reality of the situation is that many clubs have old worn traps that come out of adjustment quickly and then start to throw targets that are no longer legal targets., and that is if they were legal in the first place!
    I agree that people should not turn down targets that are on time and within legal target settings.

    Just because somebody else that can't tell the diffrence between a slow pull and a fast one and a legal target from an outlaw, and is shooting at them , does not in any way set a precident that I or my squad must shoot when presented with slow pulls or poorly set machines. Many peole can't tell the diffrence and have no idea why they miss targets. A great many are lost when the speed of the pullingis off and the targets are not presented in a legal fashion.

    I have long believed that Trap should have up to a 3 second delay after the call of "Pull' this elimanates the slow or fast pull business.
    The "We all have to shoot the same targets" arguement does not hold water as we don't all shoot the same bank! The integrity of the shoot must be upheld so that the sport is "fair" for all. This means that sometimes targets will be turned down and I see nothing wrong with it.
    Sporting clays has a three second delay I suspect for this very reason and as such you have to shoot at whatever they throw! The ref may issue another target but in the mean time you must shoot the one you are presented with. Trap shooters have to live with the result when they fire at a target.
    Since the shoots are largely run now with all voice actuated callers and usally targets are set quite well and are largely legal I can't say that I see much abuse of the FTF rule. It's nothing like it was with hand pulling! Jeff
     
  17. Post  2

    Post 2 TS Member

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    I'm afraid you would be over ruled Two Dogs. I understand your thinking but it doesn't agree with the rules. Superxjeff is right on the money. All and all it is a good rule and is easy to inforce. Post-2
     
  18. slide action

    slide action Well-Known Member

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    While the FTF rule says 2 per sub event it is not a blank check if the shooter simply REFUSES to shoot at a good target. If I am pulling and see it more than once I would probably question the shooter and if the answer is that he just didn't like the target, it would be scored lost. At any rate it would put him on notice that people were watching. While the shooter should get the benefit in most cases, a simple refusal to shoot at the target should not be tolerated.
     
  19. Wahoo

    Wahoo TS Member

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    Strange that no one has expounded on FTF due to a "Flinch" Actually this is badly mis-named, it should be called a "Freeze" because that is exactly what happens. You see the target when it emerges, you track it but for whatever reason you simply cannot pull the trigger. I read an explanation of it by a shooting psychologist. He said it was exactly what happens when your computer locks up, it has received two different commands of equal importance and simply shuts down to let someone else make the decision. You can't believe the feeling unless you have been cursed with it. You see the bird and in your concious mind you are saying to yourself "Shoot, shoot shoot" but nothing happens and all the while the gun muzzle is describing a circle around the target. It is infuriating when it happens, you know you should shoot but you can't make the gun go off to save your soul. It happens to me occasionally so I know how it feels and I sure hope none of you ever have it happen to you. There is no rhyme nor reason for when it happens, it can be when you are shooting well or lousy, it just happens and it is definitely not a deliberate FTF on the part of the shooter.
     
  20. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

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    The FTF rule when it applies to a flinch is unique. The ATA has ruled that the shooters action or inaction that caused him not to fire the shot has to be involuntary. This can be confirmed by the scorer by gazing into his crystal ball. Is abuse of the rule possible, I will let you decide. HMB
     
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