1. Attention: We have put together a thread with tips and a tutorial video to help with using the new software. Please take a moment to check out the thread here: Trapshooters.com Tutorial & Help Video.
    Dismiss Notice

Target Managers, Sandbaggers & 'legality'

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by goatskin, May 5, 2010.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. goatskin

    goatskin TS Member

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2009
    Messages:
    1,781
    In conjunction with an earlier thread abt the MN Jeff & Bob hoo-hah, I made some mention of why they had a rock in their jaw about Marathon targets (other than they don't care for BGC and Wally) ... their angst abt (perfectly legal) "Target Management".

    I had some off-lists asking what "Target Management" was, and was it 'Sandbagging' and were there 'legal' and 'illegal' versions ... The correspondents were either new and greener-than-a-gourd or they were bashful abt running afoul of Curt, Don, EE, Bob L. ... for asking the right question clumsily.

    'Target Management' is a perfectly <i>legal</i> (if a little smarmy) manipulation of the classification rules to avoid being overclassified ... because lightning struck at one or two shoots and you shot waaaay over your head and capabilities. 'TM' is as simple as shooting a few registered scores. in a blizzard. or a tornado. with 7/8oz loads. in your field gun. left-handed. standing on one foot.

    The extremes of Target Management are Sandbagging, and inflating your average.

    'Sandbagging' is purposefully lowering your average or yardage so you can sneak up on longer-yardage shooters when $$$ is on the line. Sandbagging & sandbaggers provoke a lot of both ire and envy from the general shooting community.

    While they had other reasons for opposing Marathon targets being, well ... targets ... with some self-serving concern & justification, Jeff & Bob emphasized the 'Target Managemnent' aspects: regarding marathon birds as 'easier' than tournament targets and somebody could raise the average for State Team purposes by fattening up on marathon birds in self-selected gentle conditions.

    (re-)classifying 'Target Managers' by 'proven ability' is a tender subject, but it certainly has a valid place. Pat Ireland has spoken to that a few times. Should a 'C' shooter who has run the table the last two State shoots and last year's Southern Grand shoot his (current) 'C' average?


    Bob
     
  2. Rastoff

    Rastoff Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2009
    Messages:
    1,319
    I don't understand the personality that would do this. I understand the reasoning, but I don't get the character.

    When I shoot I try my best every time. I've only run 100 one time and I'm firmly a B shooter. Honestly, I don't see the difference between Target Management and Sandbagging. Either one is a purposeful manipulation of your average. Doing it by intentionally shooting in bad weather may make someone feel better about it, but it's still the same thing.
     
  3. goatskin

    goatskin TS Member

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2009
    Messages:
    1,781
    Yeah. A couple of times, I've been as proud as punch over my 15 in a gale, or at dusk, but I can't imagine doing that a-purpose.

    If you remember the 1st threads about the $100,000 winner-take-all-prize at the grand, a lot of folks seemed to think some 20yd chicken shooter nobody outside of Pike County has ever heard of would be the the best side-bet.

    I think most folks shoot (Summer) marathons anyhow to make their minimums so they won't be penalized at Sparta.

    Takes all kinds.


    Bob
     
  4. Barry C. Roach

    Barry C. Roach Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    9,209
    Location:
    Scottsdale, AZ
    The same type of character that steals a Snickers from a convenience store. Just a cheap thief. The kind of character that gets change for a twenty when he/she gives the clerk a ten and keeps it. One who takes advantage of gentlepeople who depend on honesty from their peer.
     
  5. Don Steele

    Don Steele Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    1,536
    Location:
    Florida's beautiful E. Coast
    I quit worrying about sandbaggers and "target managers" when I quit playing the money. I came up in Trapshooting by attending a LOT of "cornfield" shoots in Kentucky. It didn't take long to figure out that there were 2 different games going on out there...even though to the un-initiated...it wouldn't appear so. I enjoy shooting against myself..so to speak..and my buddies. We don't gamble on the money, and don't look at Trap as a way to generate revenue. Once you achieve that mindset..( if you can)...then the angst about how somebody else is playing THEIR game goes away.
     
  6. Recoil Sissy

    Recoil Sissy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    2,641
    Barry: Extremely well said.

    goatskin: They aren't chicken shooters, they're chickensh!t.

    Mr. Steele:

    Your comments are absolutely correct and I agree completely as they apply to money options. However, money is only part of the issue.

    At every state shoot and other major event, honest shooters compete in their yardage groups as well as in singles and doubles classes for trophies and the glory of the win. It's been a very long time since I shot at a yardage or in a class where the low lifes dwell but it's infuriating to watch legitimate competitors particularly newbies, kids, and seniors doing their very best and losing to despicable creeps.

    Unlike some, I don't imagine a sandbagger hiding behind every tree and under every rock. But... they do exist and were I sitting at the classification desk, the individual who ran the table at last year's state shoot and a satellite Grand wouldn't be shooting his or her current C or D average.

    sissy
     
  7. AveragEd

    AveragEd Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    5,475
    Location:
    Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania
    Don's right about the money part and sissy is right about the trophy/pride thing.

    Around 1997, I ran the back half of a singles championship event at Thurmont, Maryland for a 197 and was called for a shoot-off. Five of us had 197s and were told we might have to shoot off for the Class "A" runner-up trophy depending upon the outcome of the shoot-off for Class "A" winner on the adjoining trap. An older gent was going up against a younger man - they had 198s and if the younger man won, the older gent would take the Veteran trophy and we would shoot off for runner-up. But if the older gent won, the younger man would take the runner-up trophy and we would not be shooting off.

    We all looked over at the two competitors and although we were from three different states, we all recognized the younger man as a former Pennsylvania state champion who was enshrined in the PSSA's Hall of Fame and had won, in our opinions, everything there was to win in trapshooting. I knew the man well and shot with him frequently, so I was aware that he was trying new guns and in fact was shooting one of the first of a single-barrel trap gun made that day. His average was down because of the gun swapping and I told the others that.

    They didn't care. And they really turned on him when he lost the shoot-off in the first round and took what they considered "our" trophy.

    Did he sandbag? He was, after all, correctly classified by his current average. I think the classification folks could have employed "known ability." I also think that he could have asked to be classified in his usual "AA" but obviously, winning a trophy was more important to him than how others might think of him with regard to his sportsmanship.

    The man settled on one gun, has shot it ever since and has won multiple state championships with it, so the ability was and still is there. I view what happened at Thurmont as a learning experience.

    Ed
     
  8. oleolliedawg

    oleolliedawg Banned User Banned TS Supporters

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    10,124
    Location:
    Northampton PA
    We can talk about this issue all day and we all know a few professional low life sandbaggers. Until competent classifiers and committee chairmen are willing to accept the opinion of knowledgable fellow shooters and correctly handicap these individuals nothing will change. Local shooters often report sandbaggers and nothing is done. Oh sure, they may bump him up after a class win but wait'll next year-back where he started. Simply shoot a bunch of targets in the Winter, use his field gun, 7/8oz. Handicap loads or complain of an impact change when he harshly removed his gun from it's case-the excuses are many.

    First, disregard all Winter targets for classifying and yardage reductions. Recognize that local shooters input is often valuable in proper classification. I don't know every bagger in Western PA but I can sure point out a few in Eastern PA. Ask me!
     
  9. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    7,538
    Location:
    Oxford MA
    goatskin

    "I made some mention of why they had a rock in their jaw about Marathon targets (other than they don't care for BGC and Wally) ... their angst abt (perfectly legal) "Target Management""

    So tell us how it is easier to to use "Target Management" at a Marathon than it is at a regular small standard shoot please. You know why would that get Marathon targets disqualified as apposed to any other target.

    Bob you say it is perfectly legal "Target Management" the book says,

    "5. Any member who; Submits false information for any reason to a participating club, ATA, or shoot management; or Who causes false scores or other information to be recorded; or Who commits an act of theft; or Who or commits acts which result in artificially low scores; or Who encourages assists others in such acts is subject to disciplinary action."

    If a shooter goes to a shoot with the intention of managing targets in any way. Then I feel it falls under this wording of the rules.

    "Who causes false scores or other information to be recorded;"

    That alone put that shooter in violation of the rules and I find nothing legal about it. So again I ask why would it be easier to manage targets at a Marathon than a regular shoot for money, prizes or trophies????

    Dawg

    "First, disregard all Winter targets for classifying and yardage reductions."

    Could you please define "Winter targets" that that you feel shouldn't be used????

    Bob Lawless
     
  10. goatskin

    goatskin TS Member

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2009
    Messages:
    1,781
    Bob, start a new thread. I may reply.

    Kindest personal regards, etc.

    Bob
     
  11. JACK

    JACK Well-Known Member Supporting Vendor

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2006
    Messages:
    14,690
    Location:
    NW Wisconsin
    Ertz... your 50/50 comment

    I would think the vote proves essentially how folks feel about this issue. So when you get irritated that folks do not agree, realize that there is a true difference of opinion and that does not make the opposite side bad guys whether they be Zauhar or anyone else. And your folks come off as so angry that you irritate other shooters. Adn we have shooting in common. Shoot where you want, I have no problem with that. But if all of your targets are BGC targets and your averages put yo on the all state team, most folks (or at least 50%) see that as questionalble. If I shot all my targets at MplsGC and had averages that got me on the Wisconsin All state team, should I be there? How about if I shot them at BGC? Should Wisconsin be obligated to put me on their team?

    Obviously the answer is no. Simply because they have IN-STATE RULES.
     
  12. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    7,538
    Location:
    Oxford MA
    Well Goat just what I have come to expect from you, you wish to control all the conversation no matter the content.

    You make the statements and don't fess up with the answers for the questions that you create. Typical I would have expected no less from you. Well you won't respond you have already said that so I guess that means I can say what I wish with out criticism from you.

    Ertz

    "Marathon targets are easier than other registered targets."

    One thing you must ask yourself is are they easier? Or are the conditions under which they are shot more conducive to better scores?????

    Bob Lawless
     
  13. oleolliedawg

    oleolliedawg Banned User Banned TS Supporters

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    10,124
    Location:
    Northampton PA
    Simple Bob, Winter begins Dec. 21st and ends March 21st.. Chances of getting shootable targets anywhere but in the South are limited. Targets could count toward meeting target minimums but not averages. Does anyone think breaking a few 69's out of 100 on a windy Winter day should count toward a reduction or lower classification in the Summer!!
     
  14. semperfi909

    semperfi909 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2009
    Messages:
    1,913
    The simple solution is to change the classification system to one based on finish placings and not on averages. The average book is the basis of everything that is wrong with ATA trap.
    Base the classification on performance like many many other sports, and reduce the silly number of classes. Every class is shooting perfect scores anyway, why have more than three classes?

    JMO of course - certainly not gonna happen in my lifetime.

    Charlie
     
  15. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    7,538
    Location:
    Oxford MA
    Dawg does that mean the all the snowbirds that go south in the Winter are exempt. Or maybe those that go to the Dixie, Southern, and Spring Grands. Do you throw their targets out also? Are you now condoning discriminating against those that live in the colder northern states. if you are it would seem to me you would be aiding and abetting the Bagger. Not doing anything that would control those that will go to shoot better scores and accumulate targets that don't effect their average. Isn't simple or good for the game its only good for the witch hunt.

    Are you sure that this won't be just adding another sandbagger rule that will come back to bite us in the A** like all the rest???

    Bob Lawless
     
  16. oleolliedawg

    oleolliedawg Banned User Banned TS Supporters

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    10,124
    Location:
    Northampton PA
    Bob, the way the targets were thrown at both the Dixie and Southern Grand I'll bet most top shooters would like those scores thrown out. That's really not the idea. Tell us again, do you really believe we should count abnormally low scores shot on cold Winter days towards classification and yardage reductions!!
     
  17. oleolliedawg

    oleolliedawg Banned User Banned TS Supporters

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    10,124
    Location:
    Northampton PA
    Bob, I'm gonna give you a little hint. We once had an ATA President from PA who actually had a set of b---s. His exact quote was "I don't care how many targets you guys shoot at O---------e during the Winter-they will be thrown out for classification". Wish he was still alive!!
     
  18. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    7,538
    Location:
    Oxford MA
    Dawg no pi**ing contest on this ridicules subject. You said,

    "First, disregard all Winter targets for classifying and yardage reductions."

    Dawg if I am charged a daily fee of any target and am not in violation of any rules they had better not throw out target I pay daily fees for in good faith. Or I will pay for no more.

    You can propose all the lunatic rules you wish. They certainly won't have a positive effect on promoting the sport that I am always reading so much about.

    Bob Lawless
     
  19. perga1

    perga1 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    1,474
    Dawg, there is already a rule that disregards abnormally low scores, those scores that are 10% below the average. I believe as many as 300 targets can be disqualified but it may 200. Don't bother to read the rule book much anymore since I no longer shoot registered, although I did just request the newest version along with my Master Record from Kathy Key. JRM
     
  20. W.R.Buchanan

    W.R.Buchanan Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2009
    Messages:
    913
    Location:
    Ojai CA
    Here's my .02 on this subject.

    I am new to trap shooting, in fact I just shot my 5th time,and 3rd with new XT last weekend. I'm damn lucky to break 20/25 in the first round and I go strait down from there. So I'm nowhere yet.

    But let me tell you something. I have shot pool and played alot of competetive sports all my life, and I can tell you sandbagging is nothing more than "Hustling". It's done in virtually every competitive one on one sport, and in team sports it's called shaving points. It's about one thing, and one thing only,,,,

    It's about positioning yourself to win when it counts. Nothing more.

    It doesn't matter if I run 100 strait at my podunk club every weekend when there is nothing of significance to gain by doing so. Small pond syndrome.

    If I were to compete at a big shoot and win, now I've done something. As a result the sand bagger is never going to shoot 100 strait at his home club. It would be considered like showing your cards, and put him at a disadvantage in larger competetions.

    There is no such thing as Sandbagging at the top levels of Competetion. You have to do your best everytime in order to even be competetive. Sandbagging only occurs at the mid levels, and only where there is something of significance to be won by the strategy.

    Competing at the top levels is all about "mistake management" He who makes the least mistakes usually wins. A sandbagger is usually capible of playing at a much higher level than his competetion. This is where he feels most comfortable,,, in the mid levels.

    Sandbaggers will usually miss their shots towards the end of a string. They almost never miss in the beginning of the string, because they can't take the chance of getting behind.

    Someone who comes out of nowhere to win a big match is not necessarily a Sandbagger. I personally play much better when I am playing against people who are way above me skill wise. I also am very lucky, and can actually ride a luck string. However that doesn't make me a 99-100% player, I'm more like a 95-96% player,,, with some really good days.

    Sometimes it's better to be lucky than good.

    Once a guy has proven that he can win a big tournament, then his rating or handicap needs to be based on his performance in those tournaments instead of everyday or week to week performance. Winning any significant 200 bird race with a 198+ would automatically make you AA for the next season, even if you were class C before. If you don't repeat then you could get down graded, the season after.

    The whole idea here is to make people rise to the occasion, and not rise to their "Highest Level of Incompetance".

    Leave the "Peter Principle" to the government employees.

    Like I said, just my.02

    Randy
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.