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Target-Break-Reading Challenge. Answers & Results

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by trap4ever, Dec 18, 2012.

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  1. trap4ever

    trap4ever Member

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    The results of the Target-Break-Reading Cyber-Challenge are available at the link above or directly via this link.

    <a href="http://www.mn-trap.org/target_challenge_2012/TBRCC_winner_and_conclusion.html" target="_blank">"Answers and Results"</a>

    The authors thank everyone that participated and hope everyone had a good time with the test.

    Even those who didn't enter should take a look to see how it was scored and what the results were. So hit the link, sit back, and see what you think!

    Neil, Ron, and Kyra
     
  2. az outlaw

    az outlaw Member

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    What a Great opportunity to realize that We are not all as Masterful at Reading Breaks as We thought We were. I would like to Thank You for putting this Quiz together and giving the opportunity to learn some lessons in Target Break Reading..........THANK YOU

    Mark
     
  3. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    Being the expert target break reader that I am, if I'da took the test, I'da gottum all right! I just wanted to be the first to say that!! :)

    Good job Neil and crew!! I would have participated but for scoring a less than acceptable percentage to me. 55% isn't too bad all things considered though? I still believe shooters read their point/aim and feel that last look they had is reading the break, which is only partially correct. No way to know which part of the pattern pellet or pellets actually caused the large chunk to fly in the direction it takes. Rotation and where a pellet strikes, top of clay or bottom dictates that.

    Thanks Neil!

    Hap
     
  4. Swampjohn

    Swampjohn Member

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    Well Neil, Ron and Kyra...I have no qualms in "Outing" myself on this site. Thanks for the exercise in target break reading. I've chipped and scratch birds throughout my shooting career so it was inevitable I get a few reads correct. Once again, thank you for your effort. Dick Champeau, Baldwin, WI
     
  5. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Congratulations again, Dick. You topped a tough field.

    But we don't completely buy "I've chipped and scratched birds. . ." as you describe your own shooting. We did see that you picked up twenty All-American points in the doubles at the Minnesota State Shoot last year and you don't chip your way to a placing like that.

    Your trophy is on the way and we hope it will find a prominent home in your trophy room.

    Neil, Ron, and Kyra
     
  6. ramorton

    ramorton TS Supporters TS Supporters

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    Neil Winston,

    You have money coming from the ATA. You are on the list. Roy
     
  7. Dr A C Jones

    Dr A C Jones Member

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    . . . bit of a subdued response.

    Andrew.

    (PS Thanks Neil. Glad you did it. I'll pose you a post-test rhetorical question: Which is more boring to carry out, pattern testing, or, break reading testing.)
     
  8. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Break reading is certainly more frustrating, Andrew. In the case of patterning, using cameras we've worked all the kinks out of, it's just a matter of shoot, photo, run it through Shotgun-insight and you are done. Of course, there's the anticipation while SI thinks things over, since you generally have no idea about what the pattern will turnout to say. Looking at them is no help at all. Here's a case where they really do "all look the same."

    The movie cameras are just not of the quality of the good DSLRs's so we get the cards home and pop them into the computer and, often as not, find the day and flat of shells and a lot of target money has simply been wasted.

    It's hard going back knowing that this time may not pan out either.

    But these videos were fun to do and I learned imovie and all so even though I think the response to them is, shall we say, muted, it was well worth it.

    I do hope some of the players will chime in with their reactions. I can't believe they have all been struck dumb by the answers and results. Did they do as they expected? Better? Worse? Are the satisfied with our work and they way they were treated? Anything?

    Neil
     
  9. Stl Flyn

    Stl Flyn Well-Known Member

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    First off, thanks for the test Neil. It proved pretty much what I thought it would. You really can't tell what your breaks are. Especially from a side view of the shot. I tried to really concentrate on where the initial first pellet hit the target. Then tried to see if any fragments actually where hit from the shot string, once they spread out. The fact that the target is spinning also makes it impossible to tell where the shot string is by where the pieces go. Like I said from the side it is just about impossible, and luck would be the major factor of getting those answers right from the angles of view, let alone if it is in real time from behind the shot. Thanks, Jon
     
  10. Shooting Sailor

    Shooting Sailor Well-Known Member

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    I just looked at the first answers and results video, and got half of them right. I found the hard part to be converting my side view to what I imagined it would look like from behind, then trying to transpose that onto the break for reading. I think if I took more time, it would be an easier task, or if the camera angles were closer together.

    Thanks for the brain work. Now I need a glass of my favorite refreshing beverage to ease the brain strain.
     
  11. Dr A C Jones

    Dr A C Jones Member

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    Sailor, There are many people who, in positions other than behind the gun, pass judgement on the shot placement. The test was representative of what happens on most trap squads. Many times you'll get the exclamation "oooh, you just got the back edge of that one" from people on other stands.

    If you want to try a test from behind the gun, try this one:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmZ4jK_3eXg

    The camera was over the left shoulder of a right-handed shooter on Stand 7 skeet shooting at the going away target. Targets are broken over the centre peg. The pattern is either left or right. You can send me your answers if you like and I'll send you back your score and you can then reveal it here, just talk in generalities about your result, or keep quiet. Your call.

    Andrew.
     
  12. gdbabin

    gdbabin TS Member

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    How about a test for those who can tell ya if you missed behind, in front, on top, etc....



    I've always wanted those powers too.



    Guy Babin
     
  13. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    Guy, a very few can actually see a shot string under certain light conditions and backgrounds. Those are the lucky ones that can tell another where the shot cloud went by a clay target. If one doesn't see the shot cloud, they are guessing! Even those so fortunate can't tell which part of the string actually breaks a chunk or piece off!!

    Hap
     
  14. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Stl (Jon), thank you for playing and for your subsequent comments which will be of use in designing our next projects.

    The choice of angle targets this time was not some arbitrary whim of nefarious intent; we did it because we were told it would be easier to get right.

    I'd been idly surfing, wondering why our work of a year ago had retained so little lasting impact, when I ran across this on the friendliest site.

    "Winston and Ron Bakers videos on target break reading is based on straight away targets only and you can see evidence of readable targets in the videos. Angle targets have always offered more info."

    Well, we reasoned, if our earlier videos had been unintentionally negatively slanted by our choice of viewpoints, we owed it to those we had perhaps misled to show them the angles, and thus give them a chance to more easily correlate break-types with shot-cloud location, a correlation which had been impossible with all our earlier videos.

    I'll confess that while I was editing the videos it didn't look any easier to me, but then, I'm not good at this TBR stuff anyway.

    You probably remember when TBR was just gaining steam and the ammo and gun companies hired "qualification" teams as adjuncts to popular instructors of the day. The aim was to inject some camaraderie into trapshooting, mimicking the popular cohesive social aspect which skeet has but trap generally doesn't.

    It was recognized that patting guys' butts as is done after a smoked high & low on Station 2 would never take hold in trapshooting, so the plan was to have an "interaction enabler" (a certified TBR) on every squad who could give the impression, in the words of the promoters, that "we are all in this together." But it wouldn't do, of course, to have unqualified people just braying out nonsense, so the licensing program was developed.

    I took my exam at the end of a weekend clinic with Kay in Illinois, not so much to get "credentialed" as to not to be left out. There must have been twenty classmates already proudly sporting one of the attractive metalic-thread- embroidered "Certified TBR" patches before I sat down with the Kinescope® viewer and Ouija board to take the test.

    I boloed it. In fact, the evaluators said I had turned in the worst score they had ever seen and advised that I never attempt to read a target break again and I never have. And I doubt I'm any the worse for it.

    However, the "film the angles" advice lead to a real breakthrough in our investigations. I had seen literally millions of target breaks (my own and squadmates') and had never understood the physics demonstration which each of them is. I had been blind.

    The new perspective, and its resulting new understanding, will be part of "Why Trap Target Break the way they Do", which will be a far stronger presentation than even out set of videos of a year ago.

    Ron and I were surprised how differently the breaks looked from this test's two yoked viewpoints, straightaway and angle. In fact, it was often all but impossible to be sure we were looking at the same bird and we had to develop a complicated "clapper" system just to be sure we stayed on the same page with both cameras.

    I thought the pictures were so different that I worked out a picture-in-picture system just to put players' minds to rest that they were looking at the same break, but it slowed down the Answers videos so much we doubted viewers would put up with it. (There's even a guy on the friendliest site who apparently thinks that any idea worth communicating can and should be covered in a tweet.)

    I'm helping Kyra with her New Year cards today, but when I get time I'll put a P-i-P movie together and Ron will post a link to it here. As you watch it you should take note of how different the same breaks look from different angles and ask yourself if anyone who is not the shooter, or right behind the shooter, should be reading target breaks at all!

    Watch it in a day or two and see what you think.

    Neil
     
  15. Stl Flyn

    Stl Flyn Well-Known Member

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    Neil,

    I saved this video from last year. If I remember correctly, it was to show how the targets broke when being "Topped" or shot over. Some of the shots where a little more centered, but most you really could not tell the shot was high from the break. You knew the shot was high, when you see the actual shot cloud going straight away from the camera. Jon
     
  16. JACK

    JACK Well-Known Member Supporting Vendor

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    Jon. Fun to wathch that again. I know Neil and think is is one of the best "aimers" I have ever witnessed. What amazes me about the hits on the vid you posted is that the cloud seems to miss and yet it yields a substantial break. I have bought into Neil's conclusion and no longer am a TBR. I was, and now the only thing I look for is how often the break is centered and target actually "smoked". And I move up and down on the target to obtain smoke. It has also helped to align me horizontally too. The "smoke" rule. Kiner has that too, but likely with different description.

    But Neil... Keep on "aiming"

    Jack
     
  17. Rastoff

    Rastoff Active Member

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    I apologize for being late to the conclusion party, but I'm just now getting to this.

    Interesting results and certainly eye opening for me.

    I am a little frustrated though. My answers don't seem to be included in the results spread sheet. It's not an issue because I only got 7 right. After reviewing what I got wrong, my "correct" answers seem to be more random than I thought they would be. This doesn't surprise me because I've never been good at reading breaks anyway and largely gave up on the practice before Neil's excellent videos came out.
     
  18. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    You are DP, Doug, and I scored you for an 8 when you sent in that appreciated lagniappe, Thanks for playing. We are going to add a picture-in-picture here soon it shows how the two views tell entirely different stories about the breaks. Maybe tomorrow but I'm loading Red and Green Dot shells for the final, definitive test of the two and "the center tightening characteristics of Green Dot" and all that. I'll be shooting 20 of each and that will be the final word. But should I shoot it through a "modern" gun (0.740, 0.033 choke, and so on,) or the old standard and why?

    By the way, seven/eight isn't bad, about average, in fact. Sure, you were wrong almost 2/3 of the time, and really did no better than you would have, on the average, if you hadn't watched the video at all and just marked random "readings," but isn't the ability of pretend you can tell where you shot worth it? Of course, you could simply shoot in a way that you would know where you shot, but where's the challenge in that?

    I think we agree that it is very hard to do, impossible in fact, as the "Why Targets Break they Way they Do" video will explain. Soon available at your TS.com virtual-cineplex.

    If you get time, could you remind the readers on the friendliest site what's happening here and that the way they divide everything up into thimblefuls makes them miss almost all the interesting stuff.

    Neil
     
  19. matttrapn

    matttrapn Active Member

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    thank you Neil and crew. good stuff, and fun...

    matt nicol
     
  20. Rastoff

    Rastoff Active Member

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    Well that explains it. I was looking for Rastoff.

    Yeah, I'm surprised I did as well as I did. I noticed that most didn't put in an explanation of why they picked the answers they did. Based on my own explanations, I've come to a realization that my reasoning was off.

    Still, it was/is a fun exercise and one I think every Trap shooter should try. If you look at it in the way it was presented, it is a great lesson in target reading.
     
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