1. Attention: We have put together a thread with tips and a tutorial video to help with using the new software. Please take a moment to check out the thread here: Trapshooters.com Tutorial & Help Video.
    Dismiss Notice

Switching primers

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by poacherjoe, Jun 16, 2009.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. poacherjoe

    poacherjoe Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2006
    Messages:
    1,072
    Location:
    Central Kommiefornia
    With the current shortages and price increase alot of shooters are switching to the foreign primers.I and others lack current data on how to switch these for say a W209!! Some shooters that have reloaded for years say that all the talk about the difference between the primers is BS!
    So I ask for any input on what you fellow shooters think about switching a primer for a trap load?Yes or No? Is it safe practice?
     
  2. colonel klink

    colonel klink Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2006
    Messages:
    621
    Location:
    Illinois
    I have switched primers from Winchester to Nobel Sports &/or Wolf with no data change other than the primer. I load on the low end on pressure & velocity.
    I have noticed just in the past week or so that things have really opened up around here. You can find just about any reloading materials you want at good
    ( the right ) prices, just slightly higher than they were before things went nuts. Graf's has just about any primer you want for rifle & pistol plus brass is turning up now too. Shot is $25.50 (tax included) at our club. Maybe there is a rainbow coming after all. Colonel
     
  3. Bucko43

    Bucko43 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2008
    Messages:
    1,812
    Location:
    Lakeside, California
    Poacher,

    I too switched from Winchester 209's to Wolf primers. They are the exact same size in diameter as the W209's. In fact, I am beginning to like them more than the W209's. But I can't find any more anywhere. The last time I bought them was from Widener's, and they're sold out. They are made in Russia, and are more precisely made than the Nobel Sports.

    Nobel's are made in Italy, and their diameters are larger and also out of round compared to the W209's or the Wolf's. So if you start using Nobel's you'll need to stay with them if you reload the same shells over and over again. They will oversize your primer hole, and a W209 will drop out.

    Kevin
     
  4. poacherjoe

    poacherjoe Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2006
    Messages:
    1,072
    Location:
    Central Kommiefornia
  5. Quack Shot

    Quack Shot Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2006
    Messages:
    4,003
    If you don't care about your gun and personal safety, you can swap around with whatever you want. Just warn the shooters nearby.

    A simple change in primers can cause a change in pressure of over 3000 PSI. If you are down around 8000 PSI to begin with, it could put you over the max. It could also go the other way and you could have some weak loads or incomplete ignition. Without some data to go by, it's a risky practice unless you REALLY know what you are doing. A novice is best to stay with the data AS IS. Add the primer changes to the usual variations in crimp depth and normal lot to lot variations in other components and you could have a worst case increase in pressure to put you over the limits.

    The simple facts are that it can take many thousands of over pressure loads to damage a gun. You don't know what your pressures are unless you have some shells tested. There are people that can do that for a reasonable fee. It's worth the money just for the peace of mind.

    Lyman's shotshell handbook has a study on such primers swaps. They caution against primer substitutions, since it is unpredictable. Primers can vary in intensity from load to load, so you can't really predict which way the pressure will go with a particular primer change. It's a crapshoot.

    Tom Armbrust did an article or two about the subject as well. Be careful about what you read into the articles, since it is IN NO WAY a guide to what the individual primer changes will do in every load and situation. The changes in pressures can be unpredictable.

    http://www.armbrust.acf2.org/primersubs.htm

    http://www.armbrust.acf2.org/bargainprimer.htm
     
  6. dverna

    dverna Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    2,717
    Quack

    Thanks for the links. Interesting reading.

    I got caught up in trying to produce the least expensive load and tried a number of unpublished loads using cheap primers.

    One day it dawned on me that I was using a $15,000 gun and trying to save less than $200 a year on primers. It seemed darn stupid.

    I think what sealed it was reports of guns blowing up. No real explanations, but reloads seem to be highly suspect. Saving $.15 a box did not make sense.

    I have 3-4000 Cheddites left and they will get used up in light 1 oz loads. I now use only 209 AA's in AA hulls and 209 Federals in Gold Medal hulls. Matching the primer to the hull seems logical and increases the number of recipes available.

    Don Verna
     
  7. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    9,442
    I think guns blow up because of powder detonation. I don't think it's the primers fault. HMB
     
  8. philk

    philk Member

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2008
    Messages:
    700
    Location:
    Goshen, IN
    No WW`s around so I picked up 2 cases of CCI`s from Brenner`s at Great Lakes Grand. Would not think twice about useing them if it was rifle or pistol but never used them before on shotshells, hope they all go bang.
     
  9. Dr.Longshot

    Dr.Longshot Banned Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    5,722
    I use RIO primers have been for years and have not had a missfire in the tens of thousands that I have loaded. I use them with all powders.

    Pet shoot off shell is 32.5 grs Longshot 1 1/8th oz #6s in AA Hull Rio primer
    w/various wads- Yellow AA-Windjammer-it is a screamer 1440Fps according to loading specs off the Bottle.

    Some guys use 1 1/2oz loads, they can't believe they got beat w/1 1/8th oz 6s.

    I just loaded some ACTIV hulls today with the same load, easy to tell the shootoff shells,


    Gary Bryant
    Dr.longshot
     
  10. 320090T

    320090T Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    3,354
    Location:
    Indiana
    I'm still waiting on the published 2¾ dram load that by just switching the primer will blow the gun up, or at least harm it. Anyone got one?
     
  11. poacherjoe

    poacherjoe Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2006
    Messages:
    1,072
    Location:
    Central Kommiefornia
    As I stated above"TRAP LOAD" ! I could see this being very dangerous if I was loading a 1 & 1/2 0z long range magnum duck load but we are talking about trap loads. I myself load only 1 oz and 7/8 oz shells at 1150 to 1235 fps. The hotter primers are made here in the US.The question is about all the foreign primers and lack of data, They claim to be similar to the W209 but you would still be taking a chance.320090T is on the same page,Could present a problem when using an F209A ? I thought that Neil Winston would have some input ??PJ
     
  12. dverna

    dverna Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    2,717
    320090T,
    You are probably right. I fired over 25,000 cheapies with no problems on 1 oz loads.

    Yet, I feel better using a tested load. If something ever happens, there will be one less "shoud'a" for me to worry about. Using a published load may not insure I will not get sued if someone gets hurt, or keep me and my loved ones safer, or get me a replacement gun. It gives the f'ing lawyers one less thing to hammer me with.

    "Mr. Verna, do you have any expertise in internal ballistics? answer - No

    "Have you ever worked in a ballistic laboratory, or done any pressure testing?" answer - No

    "Mr. Verna, did you have these loads tested by a qualified laboratory to insure that they were safe?" answer - No

    "Mr. Verna. have you ever read a reloading manual?" answer - Yes

    "Can you tell the court what warnings are made with respect to substitution of components in reloading shotgun shells?" answer - It is not recommended

    "So, Mr. Verna, you concocted this ammunition with cost savings as your primary objective. You did not use published load recommendations and put my client at risk so YOU could save $.15 a box - is that correct?" answer - Yes

    Jury finds for ...........

    Maybe far fetched - maybe not.


    Don Verna (who has been sued and lost)
     
  13. SMITH47

    SMITH47 Member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2008
    Messages:
    561
    I use hodgdon powder so I contacted hodgdon and they said i could substitute a noble sport primer for a winchester primer in any of their receipes ..
     
  14. Setterman

    Setterman Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2007
    Messages:
    11,164
    Get an Alliant Loading Manual, and you'll see how dangerous it is to change primers. Pick a load and then see how the pressure changes with various primers, wads, or hulls. Especially if your in the 9,000-10,000 pressure range. If it's not in the book, don't use it.
     
  15. 320090T

    320090T Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    3,354
    Location:
    Indiana
    Still waiting on that published 2¾ recipe.
     
  16. FLAKETM

    FLAKETM TS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    458
    Can you substitute a Rio for a Winchester primer???
     
  17. Quack Shot

    Quack Shot Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2006
    Messages:
    4,003
    poacherjoe

    There is a general misconception about "Trap Loads", where some people just think that they don't or can't produce pressures as high as some field loads. That is a false sense of security. Take a look at the loading data and you will see many "Target Loads" with pressures as high or exceeding that of some field loads. Target Loads are as dangerous or more so, than most field loads. The issue here is that target loads are fired in huge quantities compared to most hunting loads. I might shoot many thousands of target loads in a year and maybe a couple of hundred hunting loads. Which one can cause more stress on a firearm over time?

    Dr Longshot

    Your bottle of powder must be special, since I have not seen that load using a Rio primer listed ANYWHERE by Hodgdon.

    FLAKETM

    You can substitute whatever you want. The question is whether it's SAFE to do so. By all indications, the Rio G600 is NOT interchangeable with the Winchester W209. The ONLY primer that I have seen to be interchangeable with the Winchester, is the Nobel Sport using Hodgdon data.
     
  18. FLAKETM

    FLAKETM TS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    458
    Quack: Thanks for info. Do you know what the RIO can be substituted for --Rem, Fed, CCI, ????
     
  19. poacherjoe

    poacherjoe Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2006
    Messages:
    1,072
    Location:
    Central Kommiefornia
    Thanks for the input. Quack Shot you said everything so nicely,I thank you for that.I have been loading just about everything there is to load for about 35 years and I am aware of safety,I wouldn't load anything on the hot side with a different primer.As I first stated some people think it's BS and they need to be aware of what is safe and not safe.It would be nice if the manufacturers of the foreign primers would print some load data and let us know if you can safely swap the primers they make with ours!! Regards PJ
     
  20. Quack Shot

    Quack Shot Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2006
    Messages:
    4,003
    FLAKETM

    I treat the Rio (or any oddball) primers as the hottest load in the book with ANY primer listed. If that is a Federal 209A, Winchester, Remington, or CCI209M, then that's the load I go by. I use the lower pressure loadings with the hottest primer as a GUIDE. There was a little data out there for the Rios and it looked like the Rio primers developed higher pressures in most loads than other common primers. The Rio primer is also oversized, so it will enlarge the primer pocket of a standard hull. As for a direct replacement, it does not exactly replace ANY primer except itself. Primer changes can have different effects in different loads. You really have no way to know how changing the primer will affect the pressures, unless you have reliable data or have the loads tested. In any event, start with data showing low pressures and that could leave you a little headroom in case it increases dramatically. My first recommendation is not to swap components unless you really know what you are doing and have data to support it.

    poacherjoe

    I just don't think it's worth playing with unknown components. Eventually it may catch up to you. I don't think it's worth the savings to simply swap stuff around. At the very least, you can send some loads out for pressure and velocity testing. It would probably cost less than the savings on a sleeve of 5000 "foreign" primers and you'll have an idea of what they produce with regard to pressure. In any event, I use quality components with established loads. I have found that sometimes experimentation does not always work out. There are some combinations that were better left untried. Poor cold weather performance, poor patterns, inconsistent velocities, and any imaginable issue can be the result of careless component selection.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Search tags for this page

what is the difference between rio g100 and g600 primers