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STS Reloading question..

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by Frye, Feb 26, 2008.

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  1. Frye

    Frye TS Member

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    Hello everyone.

    New registered user but I've been "floating" for a month or so just checking this site out.

    I've enjoyed the forums and learned quite a bit so far. I was introduced to Trapshooting in November of '07 by my father and well, you know the rest. I'm hooked. I won a used reloader in a "turkey shoot" in December and I've been reloading STS and Nitro Sporting Clay hulls since.

    Here's my recipe:
    17.2 grains of Titewad (switching to Clays when it runs out)<BR>
    1 1/8 ounce of 7.5 shot (one load, all positions) I like it simple<BR>
    Fig8S wads<BR>
    CCI 209 primer (switching to federal when these run out)

    I have been loading with zero wad pressure on my Mec 600 JR press.

    I have been trying to duplicate as close as possible the Remintion STS factory loads. I really like them.

    My reloads have worked very well but I was in a gun shop this afternoon and this fellow starts asking me about my reloads and mentioned that I should be putting 40Lbs of wad pressure on the Fig8S when I seat the wad.

    I was horrified!! I have 400 rounds loaded right now and he's got me thinking I've got 400 bloopers. I looked for data on wad pressure for the STS round and can't find anything on it. I though plastic wads were set with zero pressure.

    I'm doing a Round Robin this Sunday and suddenly, I've lost confidence in my reloads. I can't verify that I've loaded these correctly. I haven't had a single issue with this load yet but now I'm not so sure that I'm not playing with fire here.

    I went out and got a flat of STS 8 2 3/4 Dram 1 1/8 just in case but that's not what I prefer to shoot.

    Is there anyone out there shooting STS loads similar to this that can tell me if I need to adjust the wad pressure and if so, What's the recommended setting?

    Thanks for your time everyone!

    Jeff. (Frye)
     
  2. Bob_K

    Bob_K Well-Known Member

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    Generally no pressure is required for plastic wads, particularly in the STS hull. Some pressure may be required in the Winchester HS hull just to get the wad past the basewad lip and seated properly. The Remington hull does not have this problem.
     
  3. Capt. Morgan

    Capt. Morgan TS Member

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    Frye, you have mail.

    Morgan
     
  4. shot410ga

    shot410ga Well-Known Member

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    There is no pressure required on a plastic wad. It's an old wifes tale. The crimp will determine how your wad works with your powder load. check the crimp, if it's dished or sticking up, something needs an adjustment, and it's not wad pressure.
     
  5. BDodd

    BDodd TS Member

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    I agree with the previous folks. With the now standard plastic wads, you only need enough pressure on the wad ram to ensure that the wad is all the way down on the powder. I've set my MEC machines to just barely show some pressure in seating the wad at the bottom of the downstroke. No more is needed and no more will remain as the wad will simply spring back to it's original shape with the ram lifted. If you call MEC you will get exactly the same advice.....breakemall....Bob Dodd
     
  6. mercedesman1981

    mercedesman1981 TS Member

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    I have to disagree with the above posts as my experiences are different. When I re-started reloading this year I too had off-sounding shells/bloopers. I then added some wad seating pressure to my reloads and have not had one problem since.

    The wad seating pressure, 30 - 40lbs is all that is needed, isn't going to keep the load under pressure but it does insure the wad is seated directly on top of the powder. I'm using the same STS hulls but loaded with 1oz loads, and 18gr of Clays using factory wads - AA's and TGT-12's. Perhaps the difference is the eighth of an ounce, but certainly wad seating pressure cured the problem.

    Lastly, the problem showed up not only in my XT, but the 1100 my son was shooting.

    Mike
     
  7. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    Jeff, forget you met the gun shop guy! Your loads were fine before, they'll do just fine now! There's a reason you couldn't find wad pressure recommendations in your loading manual, it's not in any these days. As long as the wads base is planted on top of the powder charge, your good to go. Hap
     
  8. maclellan1911

    maclellan1911 TS Member

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    If wad presure was inportant on todays shells and wads, think it would be published data? Older hull/wad design maybe. I load A sts load simular to yours with clays, great load for me so far, back to 25 yards.
     
  9. mecman

    mecman TS Member

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    What seems to be the problem with the xt's I shoot one, re-load , no wad pressure , similar loads and never a problem

    Gary
     
  10. Quack Shot

    Quack Shot Active Member

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    All you need is enough pressure to seat the wad on top of the powder. That can come from the wad ram or from a good tight crimp. It's hard to tell how much is enough, but I just try to rotate the hull while seating a wad. If the hull will rotate easily, I adjust the ram down a touch. If it is a little harder to rotate or won't rotate at all with reasonable force, then I probably have it right. You really can't see the wad seating indicator on my press move at all. I've never had trouble with plastic wads loading them like this for about 40+ years. I'd shoot the loads and not worry about it. When using very dense powders, it may become an issue, but your crimps would probably be dished in a noticable amount. If your crimps look like the factory loads and are recessed and flat, you have a winner. Some extra care may be required when loading the new two piece Winchester AA hulls. The wad needs to be seated down into the base wad itself. Wad selection is important for those hulls. Some will seat easier than others. Your STS/Nitro hulls are about some of the easiest to load.
     
  11. Phil E

    Phil E TS Member

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    Your loads will be fine. But to convince yourself, with a sharp utility knife, cut a window out of the side of a couple of loaded shells with zero wad pressure, and a couple with 30-40 pounds' pressure. Cut from mid-shot-column clear down to the shell base. I predict they'll all look the same. The wads will all be down fully on the powder charge. Now take those 400 out and win another shoot. Phil E
     
  12. wayneo

    wayneo Active Member

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    Jeff, calm down- your shells are just fine, on a Mec 600 JR. when you have the wad height indicator all the way up, the rammer tube still puts almost 25-30 pounds of wad pressure. Look at your crimps. I have never heard of anyone using 40 pounds of wad pressure unless your using fiber wads. Wayne
     
  13. Frye

    Frye TS Member

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    Wow!! Thank you everyone for chiming in. I wasn't expecting so many to respond!

    I shot 100 shells in practice today. 24, 25, 24, 24 with reloads and all seems well. I'll just forget I ever ran across the man at the gun shop. Zero wad pressure reloads scored a solid 97/100 for me today! I'm pleased with that.
    MIA, I don't understand your post about the XT.
    One would think a bad shell would bloop just the same in a Perazzi or K gun as it would in an XT, or HR or an 11-87. A bad shell is a bad shell.... My loads have performed very well for me. I've never had a misfire or off sounding round. I load one at a time and check and double check every step in the process. Every 15 rounds, I scale my powder charge and I have good, tight flat crips that you would be hard pressed to tell the difference from a new shell so as far as safety goes, I'm confident that I have some of the safest rounds on the range. You should see some of the crapo's other shooters are yanking the trigger on, Heck one guy all but stuffed a reload into his O/U with BOTH hands and slammed the thing shut, I quietly excused myself from that squad. My XT is ported so it is a bit louder than my 11-87, it's noticable but not what I consider obnoxious to the shooters around me unless I'm shooting Nitro's. The have a pretty sharp report.
    Anyway... off to the coffee pot, I need a warmer!

    Jeff.
     
  14. Quack Shot

    Quack Shot Active Member

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    Frye

    Good shooting! Next time someone recommends 40lbs of wad pressure, be sure to ask him to explain why. Then ask if it's such a big concern, then why aren't you having trouble. If it ain't broke, don't fix it!
     
  15. Frank C

    Frank C Well-Known Member

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    Take a look at the MEC Manual, on line if you don't have it, for the 600Jr., P. 9.....Note: most modern wads and powders require no wad pressure. only that the wad is seated on the powder.....
     
  16. dbl20

    dbl20 TS Member

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    Charge bar travel (or lack of it) is probably the most common cause of bloopers. When you hurry the stroke on a MEC there is a strong possibility of short stroking which will not allow the powder bushing to align properly with your powder baffle. The result is a light powder charge. Another way to achieve the same result is by not keeping an eye on the wear factor of your charge bar operating mechanism. New machines wear faster than older well broken in machines, and proper bushing alignment will require Operating Rod nut adjustment. Pause at the bottom of your stroke, check to make sure your primer has dropped, now look at your Stop Screw on the charge bar. It should be within a couple of thousands of the Measure Assembly’s slot end. Now check the wad pressure indicator, if it is still creeping down you are probably using too much pressure which could contribute to short stroking.
    W. J. Worrell is Alliant Powder’s go to guy when they have technical problems, he assures me that the new powders do not require much wad pressure.
    Jon Sharp
     
  17. waverider

    waverider Well-Known Member

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    My 2006 Hodgdon manual lists the following as the fastest TiteWAD load using Rem STS/Nitro hull, CCI 209, Rem Fig 8, 1 1/8 oz shot, 15.8 gr TiteWAD to give 1145 f/s and 11,300 psi. The maximum pressure for a 12 ga 2 3/4" hull is 11,500! The load should still be on Hodgdon's website, link above.

    Wad pressure is the least of your worries. You may be shooting a load that is over the maximum pressure. Are you sure of the information you posted on the recipe you are using? Are you really using TiteGROUP instead of TiteWAD? Typo with 17.2 grains of powder?

    Are you using a reloading scale to determine the weight of your powder drops?

    Jason
     
  18. jimrich60

    jimrich60 Member

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    Jeff: As you can see by the majority of replies, wad pressure is not really an issue any longer in shotshell reloading. But I wanted to echo the info from Jason above. Hogdon lists 15.8 grains of Titewad as a maximum load using the components you indicate you are using. While manufacturers are generally conservative in load development (for liability reasons) you are way over the max, and pressures are probably very excessive. There is a reasonable amount of safety built into most any shotgun, but a steady diet of the load you list will undoubtedly overstress the gun, and at some point with enough rounds, it could well let go, with unfortunate consequences. Please check your load carefully. Changing to a federal primer will lower the pressure slightly, but not enough to be safe! If you are actually using Titegroup, I would note that there is no safe load listed by Hogdon using either cci or federal primers as both are much hotter than Remington or Winchester. Unless that 17.2 grain data was a typo, I would strongly urge you not to use those loads.
     
  19. Frye

    Frye TS Member

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    Jimrich,
    You have my attention now!

    The load data that I referenced too comes right off the Titewad powder bottle. For the load I wanted to duplicate lists the following as a maximum load.

    Case: Rem STS<BR>
    Wad: REM. Fig 8<BR>
    Primer: REM 209<BR>
    Charge: 17.9 Grains

    This is for a 1 1/8 Oz. load at 1200 FPS.
    I'm using a 24 MEC bushing which is throwing 17.2 grains. No baffle.

    I wanted to load 17 grains even but that's the closest I could get it with the bushings sizes I have and I didn't want to hone out a smaller one.

    The bottle shows 18.2 grains as maximum charge for a 1 Oz. I don't like loading to the maximum in rifle or shotgun rounds. I load these for my wife
    with the same bushing so it's well under the max for that load.

    I have seen no signs what so ever of these rounds being too hot. Out of habit, I always flip the spent hull over as I remove it and look at the primer. None have been flattened and I see no signs of excessive pressure.

    I'm on the 4th firing of my current supply of hulls and I have thrown non out due to a loose primer pocket. As I recall, a loose primer pocket is a sign of excessive pressure. I don't have any torn ends and they have been crimping quite nicely.

    However, I am going to check this out on the web. I would like to know why the info on the bottle and the website are different.
     
  20. Frye

    Frye TS Member

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    Man ohhh Man.
    I see the difference in Data. NEVER trust the experts selling the components!!
    CCI primers must be hotter than Remington Primers.
    The place I get my components from doesn't carry Remington Primers and told me that CCI's were the same thing! Clearly, they are not the same.

    If you will pardon me for the rest of the evening, I'm going out to the garage to cut these shells up. Maybe I can salvage the powder and shot at least.
    I'm not taking an unnecessary risk of hurting someone standing next to me.
     
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