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Straw purchases

Discussion in 'Politics, Elections & Legislation' started by Brian in Oregon, Apr 2, 2013.

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  1. Brian in Oregon

    Brian in Oregon Well-Known Member

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    Although the maximum federal penalty for participating in a straw purchase is a 10-year prison term, in practice sentencing guidelines call for only 2 to 2 1/2 years' imprisonment for someone caught providing as many as a dozen guns to a convicted felon. That's half the mandatory (5-year) minimum for possession of 5 grams of crack cocaine.

    "You're looking at the path of least resistance," said Terry Austin, chief of the ATF's National Firearms Tracing Center. "If you've got someone who has a gun store down the street from him and he knows he can pay some mutt $50 to go get him a gun, he'll do it. He's not going to drive two hours on a Saturday to go to a gun show."

    Typically, authorities only identify straw buyers if repeated transactions show patterns, such as frequent purchases of inexpensive, easy-to-conceal semi-automatic pistols popular with criminals. Likewise, firearms agents may begin an investigation if guns originally bought by the same person start turning up too often in crimes.

    As a way of curtailing straw purchases, some gun-control advocates argue for a federal law that would limit firearm purchases to one handgun per month. Each buyer's ability to supply guns then would be reduced. After Virginia passed such a law in 1993, the number of crime guns traced back to sales originally made in the state dropped dramatically.

    But the National Rifle Association and other gun-rights groups oppose the step as an inconvenience to legitimate firearms purchasers and a restriction of their rights.

    Some others suggest tougher penalties.

    "This is going to be a crime that, for a certain number of people, deterrence will work. But the kind of sentences you get for a classic straw purchase don't have that big an effect," said Hoffman, the federal prosecutor.

    Hoffman said the relatively small sentences also influence federal agents' willingness to devote limited resources to pursue cases. In particular, he said, it may guide decisions when faced with making a choice on whether to use an informant to pursue gun investigations versus drug-dealing cases.

    --------------

    So, should straw purchasers be subject to a 15-year sentence with a 10-year minimum?

    How about a toll free BATF straw purchaser hot line to turn in straw purchasers or attempted straw purchases?

    Should straw purchasers forfeit all their firearms?
     
  2. darr

    darr Well-Known Member

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    2 or 2.5 years for providing 12 guns to a felon seems fair to me unless a crime was committed with said firearms.In which case a 10 year minimum would be just fine.The question is do you want to trust the felon you bought the guns for.

    The problem is that there aren't enough prosecutions of felons with guns or the people that supply them.The ATF is so inept they have to get lucky to catch anybody.And when they do catch someone,it is someone who is easy to catch.They aren't good enough to catch the big fish.


    Darr
     
  3. chuckie68

    chuckie68 Active Member

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    The first person to be turned in on a straw hotline should be Eric Holder.
     
  4. Hammer1

    Hammer1 Active Member

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    .

    When Sarah Brady bought that sniper rifle and then gave it to her son the next day claiming it was a birthday present, was that a strawman purchase ?

    She knew when she filled out the form that the gun wasn't for her.


    .
     
  5. chuckie68

    chuckie68 Active Member

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    Hammer1-----YUP!!!
     
  6. Brian in Oregon

    Brian in Oregon Well-Known Member

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    Actually, no. Gifts are exempted. Sarah Brady technically followed the law, though morally she did not follow her own convictions.

    This is from the current guide for FFL’s regarding straw purchases and gifts.

    15. STRAW PURCHASES

    Questions have arisen concerning the lawfulness of firearms purchases from licensees by persons who use a “straw purchaser” (another person) to acquire the firearms. Specifically, the actual buyer uses the straw purchaser to execute the Form 4473 purporting to show that the straw purchaser is the actual purchaser of the firearm. In some instances, a straw purchaser is used because the actual purchaser is prohibited from acquiring the firearm. That is to say, the actual purchaser is a felon or is within one of the other prohibited categories of persons who may not lawfully acquire firearms or is a resident of a State other than that in which the licensee’s business premises is located.

    Because of his or her disability, the person uses a straw purchaser who is not prohibited from purchasing a firearm from the licensee. In other instances, neither the straw purchaser nor the actual purchaser is prohibited from acquiring the firearm.

    In both instances, the straw purchaser violates Federal law by making false statements on Form 4473 to the licensee with respect to the identity of the actual purchaser of the firearm, as well as the actual purchaser’s residence address and date of birth. The actual purchaser who utilized the straw purchaser to acquire a firearm has unlawfully aided and abetted or caused the making of the false statements. The licensee selling the firearm under these circumstances also violates Federal law if the licensee is aware of the false statements on the form. It is immaterial that the actual purchaser and the straw purchaser are residents of the State in which the licensee’s business premises is located, are not prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms, and could have lawfully purchased firearms from the licensee.

    An example of an illegal straw purchase is as follows: Mr. Smith asks Mr. Jones to purchase a firearm for Mr. Smith. Mr. Smith gives Mr. Jones the money for the firearm. If Mr. Jones fills out Form 4473, he violates the law by falsely stating that he is the actual buyer of the firearm. Mr. Smith also violates the law because he has unlawfully aided and abetted or caused the making of false statements on the form.

    Where a person purchases a firearm with the intent of making a gift of the firearm to another person, the person making the purchase is indeed the true purchaser. There is no straw purchaser in these instances. In the above example, if Mr. Jones had bought a firearm with his own money to give to Mr. Smith as a birthday present, Mr. Jones could lawfully have completed Form 4473.

    The use of gift certificates would also not fall within the category of straw purchases. The person redeeming the gift certificate would be the actual purchaser of the firearm and would be properly reflected as such in the dealer’s records.
     
  7. kiv-c

    kiv-c Member

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    So, is this the infamous "gun show loophole"?
     
  8. Brian in Oregon

    Brian in Oregon Well-Known Member

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    So what do you think, Crazy Gene, should straw purchasers face stiffer penalties and should there be a hot line to turn them in?

    Or are you sidestepping the issue with unrelated name calling because it's too hot for ya?

    Yeah, that's what we figured.
     
  9. g7777777

    g7777777 TS Supporters TS Supporters

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    I see Brian has tried to make his post sound more reasonable and edited it a number of times so I will edit mine

    Actually Brian is completely wrong about the gift. It really depends on what is the purpose of the "gift" is

    If it is to avoid provisions of the law, it is not a gift, regardless of if it is a relative of yours or someone that asks someone else to buy them something for their birthday

    Doesnt matter

    As far as penalties, rarely can this provision be violated without numerous other provisions of other laws being violated at the same time, and charged seperately
     
  10. Pocatello

    Pocatello Active Member

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    Some years back I purchased a Remington 700 .30-06 as a gift for my wife's nephew. As I was filling out the 4473, when I asked the question about my intention to transfer it as a gift. The dealer assured me that the purchase was legal, and I completed the transaction. Later that year he shot a nice buck with it on a hunt with me, and the next year got a cow elk.

    There seems to be a lot of interest by gun control advocates in making purchases more difficult for law-abiding folks, but very little interest in prosecuting gun crimes by career criminals. My understanding is that it has been against federal law for almost fifty years for a convicted felon to be found in possession of a firearm, but it seems that most of those crimes are reduced in plea bargains. Why aren't they prosecuted to the fullest extent, and the criminals locked away in federal prisons? Could it be that gun control advocates are interested in control, and not crime?
     
  11. bigbore613

    bigbore613 Active Member

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    Some people dont realize when they are about to get kicked off again. Jeff
     
  12. Catpower

    Catpower Molon Labe TS Supporters

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    Gene likes to live on the edge

    But sometimes he slips over the edge
     
  13. Brian in Oregon

    Brian in Oregon Well-Known Member

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    Liar Gene, you're still using the liberal tactic of making up a lie about someone then attacking them and the lie. That's right out of the liberal "Rules for Radicals" playbook that Obama and his cohorts embrace.

    Fact is, I never said "Newtown was a government hit job by the ATF or homeland security". You made up that lie.

    Your lies have resulted in your having zero credibility here, and you've become the site clown. People here do not agree with you - they're laughing at you.
     
  14. Brian in Oregon

    Brian in Oregon Well-Known Member

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    Back to the subject at hand...

    GN7777777, quote: <i>"Actually Brian is completely wrong about the gift. It really depends on what is the purpose of the "gift" is"</i>

    Then you must believe BATF is "completely wrong" too. Because I posted a copy and paste verbatim of BATF's own definition of what a straw purchase and gift purchase are.

    You have zero credibility, and you confirm it every time you post.
     
  15. g7777777

    g7777777 TS Supporters TS Supporters

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    Brian just calling it a gift doesnt make it so.

    Regards from Iowa

    Gene
     
  16. Brian in Oregon

    Brian in Oregon Well-Known Member

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    You seem to be the expert on how to commit straw purchases. How about giving some expert tips so we can spot them?
     
  17. g7777777

    g7777777 TS Supporters TS Supporters

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    Brian again- you cant have a straw purchase between one FFL and another--

    You really are poorly informed

    Just like your advice on your gift issue was as wrong as it could be

    Brian let me give you a hint-- call the ATF and tell them--- "Hey- I met this Johnny guy and we have become close and I want to give him a "gift" but the last time he had a gun he killed his girlfriend but he is out of jail now -- I can give him a "gift" cant I ?"

    Just ask them that and see what the response is

    Then ask " I wont be in any trouble will I? I checked your website and it said it it was ok"

    Regards from Iowa

    Gene
     
  18. Brian in Oregon

    Brian in Oregon Well-Known Member

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    I never said anything about straw purchases between FFLs.

    And my "advice" is the BATF's own words - verbatim.

    Your example is fraud. Not a gift. It is a straw purchase violation. I suggest YOU call BATF since you still seem to be confused over what a gift is.
     
  19. g7777777

    g7777777 TS Supporters TS Supporters

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    My point exactly Brian

    You cant avoid a transfer form by calling something a gift

    You cant give a wifebeater a gun

    Or a druggy

    Or someone that gives you money and you in turn "give" him a gun--

    Actually you did claim straw purchases between FFLs Brian-- because when you send a gun to an FFL for transfer to an individual- that isnt a straw purchase

    You are so out of touch

    Regards from Iowa

    Gene
     
  20. Brian in Oregon

    Brian in Oregon Well-Known Member

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    You really are a clueless idiot, aren't you?

    Everything you described is a prohibited transaction.

    What you have utterly and miserably FAILED to do is describe the lawful gift of a gun.

    Here (once again) are BATF's OWN WORDS on the subject:

    Where a person purchases a firearm with the intent of making a gift of the firearm to another person, the person making the purchase is indeed the true purchaser. There is no straw purchaser in these instances. In the above example, if Mr. Jones had bought a firearm with his own money to give to Mr. Smith as a birthday present, Mr. Jones could lawfully have completed Form 4473.

    Instead of asking Foolish Gene once again if he understands the above, let me ask everyone reading this if they DO NOT understand what BATF wrote?

    And again, I never mentioned FFL's whatsoever.
     
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