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Stock Fit / Problems

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by phirel, Dec 16, 2007.

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  1. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    A properly fitting stock is important for shooting good scores. But, a stock that fits you must be mounted the same way each time in order for the fit to be correct. Any change in the gun mount will require a change in the position of the rear sight (your eye).

    My recoil pad has a small hole in the center. I cut down a new fine point felt tip pin to fit flush into this hole. I found 5, what appeared to me to be worn tee shirts, when my wife was out of the house and put on one each day for five days. With the tee shirt on, I carefully mounted my gun 20 times. The embedded pin would make a mark on the shirt. I did this five different days. Each gun mount felt right, sights lined up and I thought I could break a target with the mount. I did concentrate on consistent mounting.

    The marks on the shirts clearly showed that my gun mount varied. Three of the shirts had marks within 1/2 inch of each other and the other two shirts showed marks within 1 inch of each other. The marks were always clustered around a central point but did show a vertical difference and occasionally a mount that ended up to the right of the cluster.

    On the best days, my mount varied 1/2 inch vertically. This is equivalent (I think) of changing the height of my comb 1/2 inch during 20 shots. My five tee shirts that I now have to hide from my wife are trying to tell me something.

    Pat Ireland
     
  2. zzt

    zzt Well-Known Member

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    It depends on what you do with your head. If you mount the stock higher on your shoulder and rotate your head up and back to compensate, you have not changed your sight picture much, if at all. Same going down. As long as your cheek is crushed against the comb, your sight picture is virtually the same. Your head angle will be different and you may have more difficulty seeing the target.

    Same applies for horizontal mount errors. Essentially, you are adapting to the "new" gun mount position each time. If you didn't, you would hear Lost very, very often. A 1/2" change at comb translates to 12" at 30 yards. I'd think that would be noticeable.
     
  3. Rollin Oswald

    Rollin Oswald Active Member

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    Pat;

    I agree with zzt. It was not the location of your eye relative to the position of the rib that changed from day to day but rather, the position of your head to necessary to align your eye with the rib that changed.

    In my opinion, the change in head position although not ideal, is not enough to risk a POI change or run a risk of your head and eye position changing enough during swings, to change your POI.

    Rollin
     
  4. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

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    Pat,

    I know you take trap shooting very seriously. Therefore the best best way to ensure a perfect gun mount each time is to have two small studs surgically implanted in your shoulder. The studs will be 1 inch apart and fit into 2 holes in your recoil pad. This will insure both horizontal and vertical allignment.

    Check with your health insurence provider to see if the operation is fully covered. HMB
     
  5. Setterman

    Setterman Well-Known Member

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    It's gonna be a long winter.
     
  6. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    I like your idea, Pat, but I'd use a felt-tip pen instead. Less blood, a lot less pain.

    Neil
     
  7. chatbrat

    chatbrat TS Member

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    I might try this get an old white sweat shirt, mount the gun, have the wife trace the outline of where the pad is , then cut it out & stich some raised cord on the outline, it would make a pocket for the butt to fit in---Phil
     
  8. Hipshot 3

    Hipshot 3 TS Member

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    These are all goods points and something the serious shooter should think about. Good gun fit gets you in the ballpark and each mount should be as close to the same each time as possible, but it doesn't have to be EXACTLY the same....just close as possible. Your eye will compensate for are difference if you have good hand/eye coordination. Some shooters don't!
     
  9. shot410ga

    shot410ga Well-Known Member

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    Guess what? We are not programed CNC robot machines. If we were, we would never miss. Missing a target is part of the game. Miss less than the other guy, and you win. Perfection is never to be had. Unless, your God.
     
  10. Cherokee Kid

    Cherokee Kid TS Member

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    So if a guy shows up at your club with a leather shoulder harness with a pocket for the butt plate and breaks a 100 straight, would you all buy one?
     
  11. chatbrat

    chatbrat TS Member

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    Cherokee, if it fit & helped consistancy I would buy it in a heart beat---Phil at 65 years of age I need all the crutches available---Phil
     
  12. setter

    setter Member

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    Pat,

    Could you accompany this with the appropriate frequency distribution charts, graphs? LOL
     
  13. rrose

    rrose TS Member

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    I saw a shooter with a PFS make an L bracket and put on his butt plate whith an attached Delrin extension that sits on top of his shoulder when the gun is mounted. It does make sure at least that the gun is mounted at the same level on the shoulder.
    randy
     
  14. mercedesman1981

    mercedesman1981 TS Member

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    Interesting thoughts here, Thanks Pat.

    During the last session of our winter handicap league, in the morning session with it snowing and while wearing an overcoat, I managed a 16 and 11 at the 20yd line while trying to keep my head vertical and mounting the gun high.

    Discouraging isn't the word for that kind of performance.

    The snow let up in the afternoon, so I removed my overcoat and just wore a fleece shirt, forgot about keeping my head more upright, I just tried to mount the gun in a comfortable position (back to the older method of one I am most familiar with) and turned in a pair of 19's.

    I went through Rollin's book a couple of times, I understand the principals but after 500 rounds, found regression instead of progression. OR, it was the coat that changed things so much, certainly not the consistency Pat observed with the T-shirt experiment. But stock adjustments, using both eyes, changing the mount and my head position just doesn't seem to work so far and I have to do what I can to save the season as my son is kicking my rear-end pretty hard. I really don't know at this point. All I know is the old method of gun mount seems to work better, it is lower on my shoulder, my head is down, it is a little difficult seeing with one eye and I try to keep my glasses higher on my face to reduce the parallax when looking through the top of the lens.

    So Saturday I went back to the range to practice using my older style and turned in a 20 at 22 yds. I missed the last three targets - all hard rights, so I know I need some practice or to figure out the proper sight picture. But then I was just wearing a fleece shirt too.

    Mike
     
  15. JBrooks

    JBrooks TS Member

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    hairy,

    Beads? Beads? I don't need no stinkin' beads. lol

    May want to try a shoulder harness though.
     
  16. mercedesman1981

    mercedesman1981 TS Member

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    shootem-

    To a degree, I believe Ireland is onto something as I tried to illustrate in my post above. The more padding on my shoulder, the harder it seemed to be to hit the targets. ZZT is correct too in that where you consistently place your cheek to keep the rear sight lined up (eye) in the same consistent manner leads to more broken targets.

    How I have come to hate the word "lost"!

    I'll leave it for the experts here, but it seems all dimensions are interactive in that you can change length of pull, height of stock (on shoulder), height of comb, but to be successful you have to consistently put your eye in the right place. What I have found so far is comfort comes into play too. Contrary to what JBrooks said, I use the center bead to make sure my alignment(s) are the same but once the bird takes flight, all I see is the front site as I try to create the sight picture that breaks targets.

    Mike
     
  17. Rollin Oswald

    Rollin Oswald Active Member

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    Mike:

    To varying degrees, I believe all shooters have trouble when shooting wearing winter clothing, especially a top coat. When I used to shoot in winter, I wore down jackets. They compress to nearly nothing under the recoil pad and so affected the apparent LOP very little, if any.

    In addition to the thickness of winter clothing, there is other equally difficult problems arise. One is the restriction of duplicating the body posture used when wearing just a summer vest. Both arms are restricted somewhat and often the sleeves are pulled up with the gun mounted. Things just don't feel the same when anything is binding. Warm clothing is not designed for the shooting posture required for any kind of shooting.

    Another problem involves the gun mount. Even when I wore a down jacket, the surface onto which the pad was placed was very different than that when wearing a vest, nylon on the inside and outside with goose parts in the middle.

    The pad could be wiggled into place but it could easily move during swings. With some of the other types of shooting coats I have seen worn that were designed for warmer weather winter shooting than down and thick fleece, the gun would stay in place on the shoulder better but the weight and restrictive quality of the rest of the coat seemed to make mounting and swinging guns considerable more difficult.

    The same would be true with warmth achieved by layering clothing. There would be restrictions to movement AND the additional thickness affecting the LOP as well as the tendency for the butt to move on clothing layers, to say nothing of the bunching-up of fabric in the shoulder area, which can effectively prevent good, consistent, gun mounts.

    That leaves just one conclusion: Scores will drop during cold weather shooting for nearly all shooters and we haven't even considered what happens to the hands in cold weather, whether gloved or not and the attitude changes when shooting with temperatures in the low teens... or worse.

    Rollin
     
  18. Eleanor

    Eleanor TS Member

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    What if you are shooting a discipline where you cannot pre-mount ?
     
  19. ffwildcat

    ffwildcat TS Member

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    After watching some of the best shooters in the world at the last world cup I am convinced of one thing - gun mount is a very individual thing. The relationship between what your eyes see and the position of your face on the stock seems to be more important to consistent shooting than worrying about where the butt of the gun is placed on the body.
     
  20. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    ffwildcat- The very best shooters bring the gun up to their face. They do not move their head down to the gun to compensate for an irregular mount. The stock should fit you, you should not have to fit yourself to the stock. This requires a consistent gun mount.

    Pat Ireland
     
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