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Start Everyone on the 23.

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by Cherokee Kid, Oct 22, 2007.

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  1. Cherokee Kid

    Cherokee Kid TS Member

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    I say start everyone on the 23 yard line with 500 target reviews. The good ones will move back, the bad ones will move up. This eliminates the really capable 16 yard shooters from just stepping back to the 19 or 20 where they are really under handicapped and picking up cheap wins, primarily in yardage groups but ocasionally as Champ.
     
  2. Hullchucker

    Hullchucker TS Member

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    What good is the 17 or 18 yard line. All singles should be shot from the 20 yd. line and I agree that all handicaps should start at the 23 and only move up to the 20. Would this benefit anyone, I don't know but it might take some of the boredom out of it.
     
  3. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    Cherokee Kid, don't you recall a few years back, when new shooters would have to start on the 22 yard line? Changed from 20 to 22 then back to 20 again as it is now. Why was that put in play for such a short while? Losing new members at an alarming rate is my best guess as to why it was changed back to the 20. Those new shooters couldn't hit their azz with both hands tied behind their back and we lost them even quicker than today! You want to change something, let them start of the 17. With that line of thinking, you'd be in line with a lot of other delegates way's of solving problems that don't really exist. A cheap win is shooting a blazing high 85 with 14 other shooters and "earn" more yardage? Now that's a cheap win if I ever heard of one! Hap
     
  4. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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  5. jakearoo

    jakearoo Active Member

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    Yea yea Neil. I agree. 7.5 or 8s? I started on the 22. Weeeeee. Etc. Jake
     
  6. Cherokee Kid

    Cherokee Kid TS Member

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    Sorry to bore you Neil. However, I see a lot of guys who are legitimate 20-22 yard shooters which is the yardage at which they will always shoot. They seldom win the short/mid yardage groups because there are always good shooters passing through on their way to the 27 or, some well coached SCTP kid that can shoot lights out at the 16 decides to shoot some handicap but maybe only ever gets to the 22-23 before he leaves the nest and quits shooting.

    Either way, the true 20-22 yarders seldom even get a yardage group win and soon get tired of showing up and getting beat by guys passing through and kids killing time. I know, because I was one of the ones passing through and I took a lot of yardage group wins from those guys when I wasn't getting punches.

    It's this kind of dysfunction in the handicap system that loses shooters. I am sure that because all the delegates, EC and officers have been standing on the 27 so long, it is hard to relate to the challenges of the shorter yardage guys. I bet if the members of the EC were reduced back to the 20, there would be some changes made to screwed up earned yardage system pronto.

    Perhaps if the ATA would actually conduct a structured survey of the members and particularly those that no longer shoot as to why they quit, you might wakeup and make some positive changes for the good of the sport rather than just fiddle around about money punches that effect less than 0.01% of shooters.
     
  7. Barry C. Roach

    Barry C. Roach Well-Known Member

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    The system we have works just fine - except for the cheaters.
     
  8. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Cherokee Kid- The ATA has done a survey on shooters who have left the sport. Handicap yardage was not a major factor.

    I think what you have said above demonstrates that there are some fine shooters who begin at the 20 yard line, win a few shoots and move back. These shooters seem to win more than others who remain on the 20 yard line for some time. And, the 23-24 yard shooters will confidently tell us that their yardage group is dominated by good shooters who are on the way back to the 27 yard line. I can also assure you that the 27 yard line is dominated by excellent shooters and I have to shoot very well to win anything back there. I think the overall pattern is that the individuals who shoot best in any event are the ones who win and us average guys are left out too many times. Rather than us working hard and shooting well, it would be easier for the rules to move the best shooters someplace else and then we might win more.

    Pat Ireland
     
  9. Cherokee Kid

    Cherokee Kid TS Member

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    That's good news Pat. Perhaps you can share with us exactly what the questions and the responses in the survey were? When a customer survey is conducted it is absolutely necessary to ask questions that truly reveal the customers real opinions rather than just providing them the opportunity to provide what they percieve to be an acceptable answer.

    Using trapshooting as an example, if you ask a shooter who competed for at least 2 years why they quit, and they answer it was the expense, that is statistically probably not a true answer. The reason? If they could afford to compete for 2 years, the only way that cost could be a valid answer would be if their personal economic conditon substanially deteriorated.

    Consequently, if cost is their answer you have to ask, "Was there a change in your personal financial situation that impacted your participation", "what are you spending on clay target sports now" and "have you replaced trapshooting with another sport or hobby".

    If you want to find out if the handicap or singles classification systems were primary or contributing factors in their quitting, you have to ask a series of detailed questions to dig out the truth.

    If all you ask is "Why aren't you shooting registered targets", please check A: The cost; or B: Not enough time; guess what conclusions you will draw.

    So, is this survey available somewhere on the ATA site or do you have a private copy you could share?
     
  10. BDodd

    BDodd TS Member

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    Packman's a smart dude but this one just isn't a good idea. The handicap game is one that pits every shooter on the field against everyone else. That is it's uniqueness in trap shooting. The alternative of just having 3 games all divided into classes and shooting only against others within those classes negates any hope or prayer that the individual could, somehow, "win the big one" and walk away with a purse and trophy that says so. No, we need our prized and prestigious handicap game....breakemall....Bob Dodd
     
  11. harpo_old

    harpo_old Guest

    PACKMAN 13 , I like your way on thinkin!!!!
     
  12. Cherokee Kid

    Cherokee Kid TS Member

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    Be quiet Chris, Neil is still sleeping and Pat can't find the survey.
     
  13. slide action

    slide action Well-Known Member

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    When I started shooting registered targets (in 1973) some rocket scientist had decided that all adult males(18 and over) should begin at the 22 yard line( it had been 20 before that). Nobody I started with stayed in the sport. Contrary to what many may say things change greatly from the 22 on back. One shooter I knew was a pretty fair 16 yd. shooter(A) class but couldn't break 80 from the 22 to save his life. He lasted about a year before he quit. Finally the ATA saw it wasn't working and went back to the 20 yd. start point, but I think they ran off a lot of shooters before they did. With punches for 15 or more shooters (no matter the score of the winner), it won't take long for someone to shoot their way to their "stuck in a rut" yardage.
     
  14. Little Limber

    Little Limber TS Member

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    Packman is on the right track, but instead of classes, dispense trophies and options by Lewis Class, i.e. form the classes after the shooting's done. No sandbagging and no need for a handicap table at all! The winner would still be the champ. I know, too simple. As much chance of being tried as a flat tax.

    LL
     
  15. smsnyder

    smsnyder Well-Known Member

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    HA NEIL WAKE UP LOL
     
  16. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Huh? What? Oh, SM, it's you.

    Whew! Boy I'll tell you, a couple of posts by ol' Cherokee on an empty stomach will just knock you flat out, won't they? Glad I wasn't operating any machinery!

    Ok, I'll try . . ..from the top this time ...

    Hmm.

    OK,

    OK,

    Hmm.

    Hmz

    hzz,

    zzz
     
  17. smsnyder

    smsnyder Well-Known Member

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    Neil that's a good one. my wife and i are still laughing.
     
  18. Cherokee Kid

    Cherokee Kid TS Member

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    Whatever Neil. On another thread you complained about threads deteriorating into name calling. This thread hasn't had that and people have made some good comments. Its a shame you decided it was only worthy of a nap.
     
  19. Shooting Coach

    Shooting Coach Banned User Banned

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    Truth is, there is less gun movement from the 23 and several trap trainers are suggesting starting new shooters from the 20. I still start a young shooter on station eight with a fixed machine, and if needed, will "help" him point the gun at the target. Building confidence and making sure their first experience is FUN is paramount to them wanting to come back.
     
  20. Bustedemall

    Bustedemall TS Member

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    Station 8? Where's that, on the skeet field? Amazing
     
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