1. Attention: We have put together a thread with tips and a tutorial video to help with using the new software. Please take a moment to check out the thread here: Trapshooters.com Tutorial & Help Video.
    Dismiss Notice

Sporting Clays Targets thrown at ATA events?

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by Perazzi_MX8, Aug 12, 2013.

  1. Perazzi_MX8

    Perazzi_MX8 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2012
    Messages:
    1,698
    Location:
    Colorado
    I shot at an ATA registered shoot yesterday at Colorado Clays. The targets thrown were White Flyer targets and were tough to break. There was an obscene amount of targets hit that wouldn't give a visible chip to count as a hit. Some would alter direction and begin to wobble after being hit but refused to break.


    I walked out to the trap house when the field was clear along with both adjacent fields. All the boxes of targets in the house were labelled Sporting Clays Special and are called Pheasant/Sporter on the White Flyer website. They are targets intended for Sporting Clays shooting, not ATA events. I contacted White Flyer and here is the response from the Plant Manager:


    Thank you for inquiring about White Flyer Targets. Our Pheasant and Sporter targets are made heavier than our standard Trap/Skeet targets. As a general guideline, Trap/Skeet targets are 96g each and Pheasant/Sporter are 102g each. Those weights can be found to be slightly higher or lower as we adjust to accommodate raw materials from time to time. The Pheasants/Sporters are a tougher target as they are intended for a much more rigorous throw. Our Standard Trap/Skeet target under its intended usage circumstances should never see a machine throwing speed higher than 48mph. The Pheasant/Sporter target is designed for Sporting Clays without restrictions on the speed of the target so we commonly find ranges throwing the Pheasant/Sporter target at the machine’s maximum which can be in excess of 65mph. As far as the Pheasant/Sporter target meeting the requirement of ATA targets, yes they do but they are NOT intended for ATA competitions. Our Standard Trap targets (the AA and the Standard Bio) are what we intend to be used in trap (ATA) competitions. We have heard of clubs throwing our Pheasants or Sporters in Trap competitions but resulted in lower scores. The restriction of 1290fps ammunition in Trap Shooting is best matched to our Trap target. Sporting Clays allow for higher velocity ammunition to handle the target intended for that shooting discipline – the Pheasant/Sporter." The ATA specification we meet is as follows: D. TARGETS47 No target shall measure more than four and five-sixteenths (4 5/16) inches in diameter, and not more than one and one-eighth (1 1/8) inches in height. A target shall not weigh less than 95 grams or more than 105 grams with an allowable variation of plus or minus 5 grams per target lot. A target lot is defined as all targets withe same production number.


    I hope I have answered your questions. If I can be of further assistance, please don’t hesitate to ask. Best Regards, Jeff Schultz, Plant Manager, White Flyer Targets


    I'm posting this to make ATA shooters aware that if your club is throwing these you may shoot poorly and have no idea why. I shot at this club in September last year throwing these targets and determined it took heavy 7 1/2's to break them reliably from the 16 yard line. Yesterday, I found out for myself why and want to inform others. Clubs who throw these at ATA events can but I will not shoot there. I hope by posting this they change and throw targets intended for ATA events or go out of business. Most clubs try to throw the best targets they can so people want to come back again and that's good business sense. This club makes no sense to me. What kind of targets does your club throw at ATA events?


    Duane Nicholson
     
  2. napawino

    napawino TS Supporters TS Supporters

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2008
    Messages:
    275
    If you hit them solid, they will break no matter what clay bird it is or shot size you use. If you are not on target, 2 OZ of shot will not be any good.
    Fred-napawino
     
  3. BigM-Perazzi

    BigM-Perazzi Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    8,542
    Location:
    HELL, MICHIGAN
    Fred, I don't think that is Duanes point.

    They are not legal targets....

    The same as using AA sporting clays 1300 fps 1 1/8 oz loads.

    Maybe they are made for each other.

    JC
     
  4. waverider

    waverider Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    1,632
    Location:
    HI
    JC,

    Quote from White Flyer:" As far as the Pheasant/Sporter target meeting the requirement of ATA targets, yes they do but they are NOT intended for ATA competitions."

    Not the same as using 1 1/8 oz 1300 f/s Sporting ammo.

    I think that the clubs should only use such targets if they have no choice because they were unable to get regular ATA targets. The club should let the shooters know before hand that the tougher targets are being thrown.

    Jason
     
  5. plaw

    plaw Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2011
    Messages:
    667
    There was another post on here about Champion targets, the guy went out and picked some up ,with 5 and 6 holes the target did not break.So i see this posters point , some clubs will throw anything.
     
  6. kenf

    kenf Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    1,016
    I wonder if these guys will get banned as well from running registered shoots?
     
  7. Bob Hawkes

    Bob Hawkes Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    3,916
    Someone not thinking Duane, your opinion is spot on.
     
  8. Baber

    Baber TS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    2,348
    Suggest that you speak with Doug Kraft the owner of Colorado Calys and express your opinion as to the targets. I have shot this favility and found it an outstanding club. Maybe he is trying to hold his cost down by stocking only one type of targets or they could not get ATA ones.

    Talk to Doug and I suspect you concern will be rectified.

    T
     
  9. ken1okie

    ken1okie Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2009
    Messages:
    779
    Location:
    Oklahoma
    If they aren't regulation they shouldn't be thrown....But....... if everyone is shooting the same target whats the rub?
     
  10. mag410

    mag410 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    828
    Location:
    NE Mississippi
    Throwing Sporting targets is not illegal, but it is not very good business. Vote with your feet.

    Michael
     
  11. Perazzi_MX8

    Perazzi_MX8 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2012
    Messages:
    1,698
    Location:
    Colorado
    Thanks Bob Hawks, I'm glad someone sees my point.


    TBaber, Doug is fully aware of what he's doing. It's to keep his costs down from breakage and also not having to stock two different targets of the same size. As people around here are aware he throws a lot of Sporting Clays targets at the club as well. I think he believes most shooters will shoot whatever he throws. Trap Targets can't handle the speeds that Sporting Clay targets are thrown and that's why he chooses the Sporting Clay target to stock.


    I look at it like this: A Bar can choose to serve the good whiskey or serve the rock gut for the same price. The problem is people catch on eventually and go to another bar. Your right, it is one of the nicest, and most expensive, clubs in the area. Unfortunately the targets they throw are the toughest to break at an ATA event. Most people around here shoot poorly there and I wanted to share the reason why with them. Note the picture of the target I took from the trap machine on Sunday. White Flyer, Sporting Clays and the image of a Pheasant on it. There is no doubt what target they throw there. Go back and read the original thread I posted and see what the White Flyer, Plant Manger has to say about their product. NOT intended for ATA competitions, says it all.


    Duane Nicholson
     
  12. flashmax

    flashmax Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2013
    Messages:
    6,285
    Location:
    Colorado
    The issue is being looked into. Some seriously good shooters struggle there and some of them haven't shot there in years. It might not be 'just' targets. The background is tough. The range sets where high humidity is an issue ( yes Alice, humidity in Colorado ) and scores on damp days and especially after a previous rainy day or evening go down for ALL shooters. Sundays shooting was right in the middle of the Monsoon and we have had a couple of weeks/several weeks of rains. The 'scores and averages' shooters don't like CC but they too can shoot high scores there when everything else is right. The days everyone shoots well and the days everyone shoots weak scores are not interspersed with days when just a few shoot well or just a few shoot not so well. It is consistent from shoot to shoot. Target legality? White Flyer says on their website that ALL the targets meet the rules for ATA, NSSA, NSCA, and ISU size and weight. Also;

    Pheasant / Sporter Target
    Essentially the same target as the Standard Trap & Skeet target, both 108 mm and same paint schemes. The difference between the two is the Pheasant/Sporter was designed specifically for Sporting Clays shooting. Based on longer throwing distances and faster speeds, the Pheasant/Sporter weighs a few grams more and is a bit denser in its configuration than the American Trap & Skeet target. For Sporting Clays we recommend you use the Pheasant/Sporter version. Both the Pheasant/Sporter and the American Trap & Skeet targets “smoke” extremely well and are used at the NSSA World Skeet Championships; ATA Grand American Trapshoot and the NSCA National Sporting Clays Championships.

    If the same targets are thrown all over the place might be we are making too big a deal out of this? Might it be more than just targets? I don't know for certain and that is why I said first crack out of the box that the matter is being looked into.

    Duane, if you are who I think you are we shot on the same squad for the SW Zone shoot. I want you to reread the above paragraphs and we will talk next time out about it. Or before if something is learned that is pertinent. OK?

    Don T. Littleton CO
     
  13. Brian in Oregon

    Brian in Oregon Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    25,251
    Location:
    Deplorable Bitter Clinger in Liberal La La Land
    I could see where not knowing the tougher sporting clay target is being thrown might be an issue for those shooting smaller shot. When I started shooting sporting clays I used 8 shot for pattern density, but found that 7.5 worked better to bust the targets. Sometimes, not often though, the 8 shot dusted the clay, but I don't recall a clay getting dusted with 7.5. Note that at my club we cannot use sporting clays loads and are restricted to trap loads. This is because the higher velocity loads risk dropping shot onto neighboring property. Frankly this was not a big deal for me, and I wound up using whichever shot size I could find cheap. But for those who make or break winning or losing on one bird, this might be a consideration.
     
  14. Perazzi_MX8

    Perazzi_MX8 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2012
    Messages:
    1,698
    Location:
    Colorado
    Don T: I might not be the guy you shot with. I'm easy to spot, being as big as I am, and that may be why I got busted walking out to the trap house...LOL. I was also told I didn't have eye protection on by a guy who was wearing his sunglasses up above the bill of his hat. Looking forward to talking but I don't buy into anything, at this point, except the "Poor Choice of Targets" thrown.


    Thanks for your comments, Duane Nicholson
     
  15. Setterman

    Setterman Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2007
    Messages:
    11,159
    Throw those all the time, and we won't need a 29 - 30 yard line!
     
  16. us820

    us820 Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2012
    Messages:
    383
    They are probably still better than Champions lol.

    When you come down to one or two birds separating places on the state team every year you will care about hard targets.There is a difference.Anybody who thinks they break the same has no clue what they are talking about.
     
  17. 548

    548 Guest

    What is in it for the club? Are they cheaper?

    ATA shooters are not just shooting to win an event; they are shooting to achieve the highest yearly average they can. ATA shooting is a marathon, not a sprint. Every bird counts.

    I wouldn't spend my time or money at a club using these targets. I didn't even know they exist, and so I thank the original poster.
     
  18. Wass

    Wass Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    166
    Location:
    Colorado
    I shot there last September and thought I just had a bad day and was wondering why some of the "big dogs" were complaining about how hard the targets were to break. I shot my worst score of the target year there and I think Duane just told me why. Thanks Duane.

    Wass
     
  19. Oregunner

    Oregunner Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2006
    Messages:
    3,338
    Location:
    Oregon
    It looks like they also throw sporting clays at that club, so hopefully it was just a mistake by whoever was loading the trap houses for that shoot. It would be too bad to ruin a clubs reputation, if it was just an isolated instance. Mark
     
  20. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    9,442
    Sounds like the perfect place for sandbaggers to fill their required registered target requirements with a nice low average. HMB
     
Search tags for this page

duane nicholson ata

,

illegal sporting clays targets

,

picture of skeet being thrown

,

steel targets that throw clays

,

what are the most commonly used skeet throwing machines in nssa competions

,

winchester sporting clays loads labeled illegal for ata