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Speeding up shooting timing

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by BigFang, May 17, 2012.

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  1. BigFang

    BigFang TS Member

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    My Son really needs to speed up the timing of his shooting. He waits till the target is at the peak of it's arch to shoot, and many times it is on it's way down before pulling the trigger. I was thinking about entering us in a doubles league, for me to practice for competition, and for him to learn the timing of when to pull the trigger. Good or bad idea? Any other suggestions?
     
  2. jmac_cope

    jmac_cope Active Member

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    I think that shooting doubles will not help. Your son needs to learn how to shoot the bird quickly on the rise, well before it tops out. ie more aggressively on singles. Try to get him holding the gun tighter and pulling the trigger when the barrel FIRST gets to the proper position. He needs to learn to trust his natural instinct to get the gun to the target and not to ride it out to where it begins to drop.
    JMAC
     
  3. OldGoat

    OldGoat Well-Known Member

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    Sign him up - give him an early Christmas present - for a session with one of the top shooters...Leo, Harlan...or your choice...it will be money and time well spent for the education! Many shooters wish they had taken a class much earlier in their shooting experience. Best Regards, Ed
     
  4. bcnu

    bcnu Active Member

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    Gotta agree with Old Goat here. If people would take a clinic before they get the bad habits ingrained, it will be much easier to shoot well. John
     
  5. DC Claygunner

    DC Claygunner Member

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    Most of the kids I help shoot and ride the target a long way, are aiming the gun. I also agree with the others and would add one more step. Get the gun fitted to him with a good gun fitter. There are many good ones out there. I like Todd Nelson with Country Gentleman. Barry
     
  6. OldGoat

    OldGoat Well-Known Member

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    I believe gun fit check and recommendations are part of the class with Leo and Harlan...not 100% sure. A friend who took a class with Harlan said he spent a box of shells and considerable time on patterning and gun fit. Regards, Ed
     
  7. Remstar311

    Remstar311 Member

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    In all honesty, when I started shooting skeet I picked up speed shooting trap.
     
  8. Setterman

    Setterman Well-Known Member

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    You didn't say how old he was or if he is strong enough to control his gun. How long has he been shooting?

    True, lessons from a someone that understands shooting basics would help. I'll bet he is not looking in the best place to see the bird, and lacks either strength or confidence to pursue the bird aggressively.
     
  9. BigM-Perazzi

    BigM-Perazzi Well-Known Member

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    He's aiming the gun.

    Analogy: have him hit nails with a hammer. Focus on the nail head. You don't watch the hammer.

    Shotgun, the same way, your forearm hand/finger is pointing at the target, your hitting the bird with the barrel bead (hammerhead).

    It's all about getting your mind around understanding it can be done..

    But, the gun MUST shoot where he is looking to be successful!
     
  10. Ajax

    Ajax Well-Known Member

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    Faster shooting is the result of seeing the target faster. Not the other way around. I assume you've had his eyes checked? Most kids I have helped start out aiming the gun, so he's not unusual. A good basic instructor would be of help.

    Ajax
     
  11. romie

    romie Active Member

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    I agree with big perazzi I think he is aiming. Very common with a new shooter and some old shooters.
     
  12. Jack L. Smith

    Jack L. Smith Member

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    So many reasons possible for delayed shot, what are the solution?

    I agree with Alex, that he MAY not be seeing the target well, or soon enough. Why shoot doubles? You may reinforce bad technique and double the negative reinforcement.

    If you (& he) are serious, gun fit and mount are the first keys to seeing the target presentation.

    If you live in SE PA or S NJ area, I can direct you to a good "one on one" gun fitter & coach. If not, try to find one in your area. The clinics can be great, IF your son gets enough personal instuction & gun fit, not just gun POI. Some clinics are drills - why drill bad habits?

    Hold point is important to seeing the target of course, and this can vary by day, trap house, & conditions. Is your son using both eyes, or closing one?

    All this has to be set to get a 'good look' !

    good luck to you and you son- you'll find the solution(s).

    js in PA
     
  13. dead on 4

    dead on 4 Well-Known Member

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    Invest in a couple of video's, I would start with Kiner's and go to Leo's and Harlan's, these will teach him concepts. Have someone check his gun fit, get his basics and srength in order, make sure he has a firm grip on the grip and the stock is pulled in tightly, then get him in a clinic. Remember, Slow is smooth, smooth is fast. It takes time for everyone to pull it together..

    Surfer
     
  14. wireguy

    wireguy TS Member

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    Copyright 2012 by Doug Scott
    POWER STEERING FOR YOUR SHOTGUN


    Long ago, in a land far away, the maker of the world's first shotgun stepped into the woods and took his first shot with his new creation. At a grouse. He would of hit it but the barrel snagged on a trailing vine just as he tripped over an exposed root and a bug flew in his eye. No, really.

    Following on the heels of history's first excuse for muffing an easy shot he did what any experienced wingshooter does. He wrote a book. The author of that tragically lost volume wrote "Shoot with both eyes open. Focus on the target. The bead isn't there for you to look at, the rifle hasn't even been invented yet, and you don't aim a shotgun." Those simple instructions have never been bettered. For wingshooters of our age however those instructions can seem counter intuitive. Having watched cops, cowboys and soldiers on television aim their guns for decades, many shooters today "know," if they know nothing else, that one aims a gun. Understanding why we don't aim a shotgun is one of the most important lessons any successful wingshooter must learn. The fact that there is a "sight" on the end of every shotgun barrel doesn't make learning this lesson any easier.


    One important reason we don't aim a shotgun is there simply isn't time. While a rifle shooter may have the luxury of carefully placing sights on a relatively stationary target, no such luxury is afforded the wingshooter. We have scant seconds, sometimes mere moments to move our target crusher to a point in a huge four dimensional arena where our very small target will shortly arrive. Aiming, attempting to align the bead with the target, is doomed to failure. Aiming takes time we don't have, and typically places our shot string behind the target. Aiming is missing.


    If successful wingshooting is achieved without aiming, how then is it achieved? The ability to quickly and accurately acquire targets without aiming is actually built right inside us. The concept can be easily learned through an analogy to something we are already familiar with, steering an automobile. In the concept of steering lies an easily understood parallel to successfully stroking a shotgun to a moving target. Does that seem a bit implausible? Let me show you why it is actually quite accurate.


    One oft used explanation for how we properly move a shotgun to a target is that we point the shotgun. While it may be true that a shotgun is a pointing, not an aiming instrument, shooters don't spend a lot of time pointing at things in such a way the skill becomes habitual. People do however spend hundreds of hours per year steering automobiles, and steering is an accurate parallel to moving a shotgun to a target without aiming. Let's look at this concept and see how critical skills required in clay target shooting are the same skills shooters are already using while driving. [or riding a bike]


    When we drive a car we look out in front of us at where we want it to go, constantly chasing a moving "target," and steering it there is easy and natural. We don't steer them down the road with one eye closed and the other focused on the hood ornament, the open eye bouncing back and forth between the hood ornament and where we want our vehicle to go. We simply look out there at where we want it to go, and steering it there is completely natural, requiring nothing like aiming. The barrel and bead on a shotgun are analogous to the hood and hood ornament on a car. It is obvious that driving with one eye closed, aiming our vehicle down the road by looking at the hood ornament would quickly result in a wreck. The same holds true in target shotgunning. If you want your score sheet to look like a bad wreck, by all means attempt to align the bead with the targets. This is why the bead or "sight" on your barrel isn't a sight at all. It is an indicator, to be seen indirectly (perceived as not seen at all) as you focus out there at or in front of the target. The part of our brain which does the work is subliminally fed information about muzzle location from the bead, but the moment you reference the bead directly you have reverted to aiming, your move to the target will slow, and you will probably shoot behind it. If you want to look at your bead, do it while your gun is in the rack.


    While the physical manipulation of a shotgun is different than the physical manipulation of a steering wheel, the steering concept and the mental skills used are quite similar. For drivers they are also well practiced. Your brain understands the steering concept and is probably quite good at it. (If you aren't sure ask the passengers in your car.) Whether steering a car or shotgun we tie it to our brain through our hands and eyes. Since steering a shotgun to a target uses the same fundamental skills as steering an automobile -hands on the machinery to be steered and focus out where we want to steer to- steering the shotgun to the target is the sensible and logical means to success. The fundamentals of steering parallel the fundamentals taught in successful wingshooting - both eyes open, look out THERE at the target. If there is one difference between steering a vehicle and steering your shotgun it is intensity. Successful shotgun steering requires hard eye focus at or in front of the target. It is hard eye focus that causes a shift in which part of our brain is doing the steering. Now that we are steering our shotgun let's upgrade to power steering.


    We've all experienced suddenly returning to conscious awareness behind the wheel with that "wow, I don't remember getting here" sensation. That sensation is the result of a shift from sub-conscious control of your automobile back to conscious control. You don't remember that time because your conscious mind doesn't remember that in which it isn't engaged. During that time when your sub-conscious mind was steering your car, your conscious mind was engaged in some other activity, literally thinking about something else. Still, the car maintained its course down the road and didn't collide with anything or careen into a ditch. This is a beautiful part of the steering analogy, and a perfect way to introduce the shooter to that mysterious other entity who lives in their head, the sub-conscious mind. You have already experienced the ability of this "other" mind to take over and steer a couple thousand pounds of glass and steel in traffic for minutes at a time. It's ability to take over such a complex task so thoroughly that we don't even remember the journey is a clue to how powerful the sub-conscious is. It is the sub-conscious mind that puts the power in power steering for our shotgun.


    The sub-conscious mind is the shooter's best friend. It is a high speed computer that can calculate speed, distance and angle so quickly that when it is fully engaged, when we are "in the zone" as we say, we often perceive time as dramatically slowed. This is because the sub-conscious computer is operating so quickly our perception of time and speed is distorted, and the targets become big and slow, sometimes even motionless. Our own experience behind the wheel gives us a way to recognize and trust that this other mind, the sub-conscious, is real, powerful and capable. It is equally capable of steering a shotgun.


    The sub-conscious normally remains in the background while our moment to moment activities are handled by our slow, comparatively inept conscious mind. We need a way to get our conscious mind to step aside, on demand, and allow the high speed sub-conscious to step forward and take control of our move to the target. The means we use to do this refers again to why those fundamentals of successful target acquisition work. It is hard eye focus on the target that forces the bossy conscious mind to sit down, stop talking and remain that way for a few moments so the sub-conscious can step up and deliver to us it's incredible capabilities. This shift only takes place with hard eye focus on or in front of the target. It is fierce visual focus that forces the conscious mind to submit to the sub-conscious, and allows the sub-conscious to take control. Thus we have a means to successful target acquisition, a reason to trust that it works, and a method to turn it on.


    Think about it. You get behind the wheel, start up your vehicle and
    steer it down the road. Your eyes are focused out there where you want the car
    to go. Your eyes are drinking in information that is fed directly to your sub-conscious mind. You steer your auto down the road for miles without crashing while your conscious mind engages other interests like music or
    talk radio, and you don't even remember the trip. As you ease into the familiar routine of steering you undergo a process wherein your conscious mind goes on to less demanding pursuits, and your sub-conscious quietly, without you even noticing, steps forward and takes control. The beauty of it is that we can do the same thing with a shotgun, and we can do it on demand.

    We can shut the noisy, demanding, frightened, bossy, confused conscious mind up and allow the fantastic high speed computer that lies between our ears to take over and power steer our move to the target. Over time the process will, like
    driving, become habitual, and your score sheet will look like it just got a detail, wash and wax.
     
  15. BigFang

    BigFang TS Member

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    Thanks for all the great help. More info on my shooter. He is in 8th grade, 6'0", 210 lbs, shoots left handed with both eyes, has a BT-99 34" Mod choke with adjustable comb. He has shot rounds as high as 23, and as low as 8 this past season. He is great if he keeps hitting, but misses make him take more time, which let the targets get away worse. We will get some of the videos to watch.
     
  16. HUNTER64

    HUNTER64 Member

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    I have been coaching on the youth team for four years now and all kids start out doing this, almost all kids.... The way I have helped them thru this is to stand beside the with the machine locked on straight aways and have them keep shooting quicker and quicker... It helps build the confidence that way and no one is keepn score. I still have one young man who tends to ride a few if he misses a couple and a simple U R Ridn Em stops it and back to normal.. For the most part a year of this is not uncommon for 12-13 and under kids..
    Good Luck
    T.J.
     
  17. Barry C. Roach

    Barry C. Roach Well-Known Member

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    Put the young shooter on here and let us ask some questions. I know I have several and we might just sort some things out.
     
  18. John Galt

    John Galt TS Member

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    Perazzi and romie have it right. The boy is trying to shoot sustained lead like he's skeet shooting. While sustained lead works well for most skeet and some sporting targets, it's no good for trap. Have the lad switch to swing through and he'll soon be breaking targets before his dad even sees them. IMHO
     
  19. Barry C. Roach

    Barry C. Roach Well-Known Member

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    You might have him dry fire against one of those Terry Jorden's shooting charts. Start out at his current speed and decrease it a bit at a time.
     
  20. Hill topper

    Hill topper Member

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    I'm in the "he is aiming camp"

    Wrap some tape over the sight to obscure it and have him shoot some straight a way targets. Insist that he look only at the target and pull the trigger when he is looking at it.

    He needs to train his eyes to go to the target.
    I have used this method with a number of new shooters that were aiming with good results.

    After he is powering the targets, then you can remove the tape and see whether he reverts to aiming. If so, put the tape back on untill he learns to let his eyes go to the target.

    ed.
     
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