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Spectator Stops Squad to Correct Scorer

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by Barry C. Roach, Oct 5, 2009.

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  1. Barry C. Roach

    Barry C. Roach Well-Known Member

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    Tell him/her to mind their own business. Spectators' input must be ignored.
     
  2. TNCoach

    TNCoach Member

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    If I were shooting, ignore it.

    If I were watching on the sideline, I would remind the spectator that the rules forbid this behavior. I had to do it at the Cardinal Center...let's just say that the woman wasn't very happy after with me.

    TNCoach
     
  3. Recoil Sissy

    Recoil Sissy Well-Known Member

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    prairiedog:

    ATA rules are very specific. Section VII, Paragraph A, part 1 states decisions by the scorer/referee concerning dead or lost targets are final and subject to review only by the shoot committee or other governing body.

    The kibbitzing spectator was out of line no matter how well intentioned he or she may have been.

    sissy

    Edited addition: In some instances a "spectator" could legitimately lodge a protest with shoot management about an improper ruling other than scoring of dead or lost targets.

    As an example, there is no such thing as a failure to fire (FTF) on the second target of a doubles pair if the first target was shot at and missed. If a scorer were to declare a FTF and allow the pair to be reshot under these circumstances, it would be a correctable error and subject to protest. Even then, Section VII, Paragraph A, part 14 specifies that a valid protest may only be made by a competitor in THAT particular event. A non-competing spectator would have no standing under the rules to lodge such a protest.
     
  4. scott calhoun

    scott calhoun Well-Known Member

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    As long as the spectator was a shooter that was entered in the event, I think there is some latitude for this to be acceptable. In golf it's called "protecting the field". I might be playing poorly and getting beat by my playing partner so his score changing by 1 or 2 strokes wouldn't impact my standing in the tournament, but it could impact the standings for players who are not in my group, so it is my obligation to protect the field by making sure my playing partners play by the rules or otherwise don't gain an unfair advantage.

    I think the same would be true in trapshooting. I'm not sure to what extent you would take it (i.e a spectator/non-shooting competitor questioning dead/lost calls from the sidewalk), but it seems like there would be obvious things that would be reasonable (pointing out that a trap that isn't oscillating, shooting from the wrong yardage, etc).

    Scott
     
  5. Mike Hessong* (MH*)

    Mike Hessong* (MH*) Active Member

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    prairiedog,

    I am a little confused on your description on what happened. If I had been on that squad and the scorer called out the scores "reversed" between 2 shooters; i.e.: me on station 1 with a 5 and station 2 shooter with a 3, and the scorer called out 3, 5 .... , I would NOT continue on shooting, thinking she (or he) just reversed the score and really knew what we had without checking with the scorer before continuing. The spectator calling this out and stopping the squad wouldn't have anything to do with me wanting to definitely make sure they had my score right.

    I would not just assume or think I knew the scorer had it right and just called it out wrong without verifying what had happened, and then change post and return to shooting.

    "The squad was aware of the scorer's error in calling out the scores but chose to continue as they knew the scores were correct, just reversed." My question is HOW was the squad aware he reversed the score, but wrote them down correctly without verifying the scores themselves????

    Mike* (MH*)
     
  6. short shucker

    short shucker TS Member

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    A few years ago, at one of the bigger state shoots, I was watching a squad of 27 yd shooters just puff-balling targets. Then a shooter just chipped a little piece of the bottom, and "loss" was called (the piece was seen by 4 of us "spectators"). None of his squad-mates saw the piece, so nothing was said.

    I later found out that it cost him a shoot-off for the Handicap Championship.

    I'm sure that wasn't the first time that has happened. And, the arguement could be made that he should have hit it better. It always a good idea to look at the targets even when its not your turn to shoot.

    ss
     
  7. TNCoach

    TNCoach Member

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    Scott - I totally agree with sissy the only persons allowed to question a call are those on that squad!

    If shoot management, witnesses a problem they should take it up with the squad and scorer after the squad has stopped shooting. Our spectator should have alerted shoot management and kept silent.

    Mike - I've seen too many times in doubles where the squad looses itself to the moment and doesn't sweat the small stuff unless the scorer starts getting every pair backwards.

    I've had a lot of youth shoot pairs "backward" and really break my scoring rhythm. If it matters to the squad, they will let you know.

    TNCoach
     
  8. 9point3

    9point3 Well-Known Member

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    At the fall HDCP I had called for and shot a target and the next shooter would not shoot, I looked at the shooter and indicated it was their turn and I was told that I had shot a broken target, I saw no broken bird, the other 3 shooters saw no broken bird and the puller saw no broken bird. The shooter that saw it convinced the puller that I had shot a broken bird so I had to shoot again. I missed it!
     
  9. larryjk

    larryjk Member

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    Beware of having a broken target called when you think it wasn't. It was always one way to play the one-upsmanship game. It causes you to lose concentration and think about the disagreement. Result - lost bird.
     
  10. TNCoach

    TNCoach Member

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    EE - her story was that she was trying to her gun fixed and wanted to check it at the practice traps and they had already started make-ups...so she was going to make everyone pay for her wait.

    It's hard enough making up birds without someone yelling can't you hurry up and that should have been a loss...they ought to fire that score keeper...blah blah blah!

    After wards I did smile when she took the line and her gun was still broken - call it karma - LOL

    9point3 - I've seen that happen a couple of times and it's one of the lowest things I've ever seen - I watched a whole squad tank because of this bad behavior and the guy seemed pleased until he found out he was the low man on the squad?
     
  11. Trap2

    Trap2 Well-Known Member

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    Larryjk is absolutely right! This is one of the oldest tricks in the book of one-upsmanship. Shooters must always be aware of the mind games others will play with them, especially in a shoot-off situation. I have actually seen shooters totally change their shot timing, change their calls, speed up, or slow down their shot, question targets, etc. to try to throw others off their game. I've even seen them stop, when changing posts from 5 to 1, and actually start talking to other shooters in the shoot-off trying to break their concentration... Sad thing is, it usually works unless the other shooter is aware of these tricks and refuses to let them bother him. It's really all a mind game, isn't it??... Just my experience.. Dan Thome (Trap2)
     
  12. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    I saw an orange colored butterfly cause a man to shoot his smoked target over. Post 4 called out a broken piece coming out of the house and was adamant he saw it! I saw it from post 5 too, it was the butterfly he'd seen! I objected but was overruled and the man put his game cap back on and smoked the next one out also!! Mental game or mistake? In that case it was a mistake in what the man "thought" he saw. I don't think that call should carry much weight since there's 6 others watching, or should be, to cause a re-shoot on a perfectly flying clay! Hap
     
  13. Recoil Sissy

    Recoil Sissy Well-Known Member

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    Gentlemen:

    We all understand scorers' decisions are influenced by shooters on the line. Scorers often reverse calls or change decisions based on input from members of the squad. This is especially true when the scorer isn't confident about a call he or she made.

    Such reversals are neither unreasonable nor inappropriate. In the vast majority of cases squad members are simply trying to correct what they believe to be a scoring error. Nevertheless, the ATA rules are clear. Decisions are NOT up for a vote. What a scorer/referee decides is absolutely not subject to review by the squad shooting, by shooters on other squads, by non-shooting specatators, or by anyone other than shoot management.

    Most experienced competitors have re-shot targets after a squad mate declared it to have been a broken target. If I ever chose to contest such a call, I would politely advise the scorer,

    "It is YOUR responsibility to make these calls. Whatever decision you make is ok with me. If my target was broken coming out of the house, I must re-shoot. However, your decision should be based on what YOU saw or didn't see. That other guy doesn't get to make YOUR decision. His opinion doesn't count. Unless YOU saw something to make you believe my target was incomplete coming out of the house, your first decision (dead or lost) should stand."

    Some posters have complained about gamesmanship. I would simply point out that nobody can get in your head unless you allow them in.

    Another poster commented on someone changing their timing, their call, or employing other distracting behaviors in an attempt to "throw others off their game". So what? Events (including shootoffs) are game on. No offence intended but if your performance is determined by someone else's foolishness, you deserve to lose.

    sissy
     
  14. BIGDON

    BIGDON Well-Known Member

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    People in the stands caused a reversal at a championship shoot off at the Grand in Vandalia several years ago. They raised such a fuss over a lost target that the ATA officials changed the out come and named the shooters co-champions after one had been named the winner.

    Don
     
  15. Trap2

    Trap2 Well-Known Member

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    Sissy..... I totally agree with your post. I find it entertaining when a shooter tries to get into my head while shooting, especially in a shoot-off. Usually he is putting more effort into throwing me off than is worth doing, and he usually drops a target, sooner or later, because he is paying more attention to me than to the target. I agree: When the event starts, it definately is "Game On", however, I also think there should be some common courtesey and mutual respect shown between competitors.... Just my opinion. Dan Thome (Trap2)
     
  16. jeffprigge

    jeffprigge Well-Known Member

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    Know the rules , rule books are not scarse , there everywhere , read it!!!! . If you are not on the squad shooting or the score keeper/referee ,stay the hell out of it. If it is blatent abuse report it to shoot management , that's what they are there for. This has never happened to me personlly , but if someone stopped us in the middle of a round and raised a fuss, they would not be very happy when I got done.
     
  17. 1brucem

    1brucem TS Member

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    The observer was trying to correct an injustice. This was of no gain to the observer, only the shooters. Why be upset with that? I think there are too many black and white opinions here. What harm was there caused by the observer, none, just justice beings severed. Isn't that what counts? If there is a conflict between justice and the rules, I for one hope justice prevails over the rules! Bruce
     
  18. KEYBEAR

    KEYBEAR Active Member

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    You can,t have people from the parking lot makeing calls that is why me have people scoring .
     
  19. sliverbulletexpress

    sliverbulletexpress TS Member

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    1brucem, how can you say that? It would be very easy for a spectator to have a stake in the outcome. It doesn't take any imagination to figure that one out. Wake up!

    This thread makes me sick. Not long ago we had a thread about others on your squad calling a lost bird on someone else forcing the scorer to change their call. I stated then how I feel about that. The squad and especially the squad leader should be looking for pieces the scorer might miss, but to call lost because THEY didn't see the piece the scorer saw? That is unacceptable and if done to me I promise said squad member will get to face me man to man and I will get some satisfaction. I'm old and past my scrapping days but I will get some before it's over. I may be the one carried out on a stretcher but that's fine, I won't be screwed over without a fight.

    This situation with a spectator causing the scorer to change their call is beyond everything. It's against the rules no matter how hard you range lawyers try to justify it. I would have refused to shoot it over and demanded the match director to come and the squad would just have to wait. If any shoot director would uphold this I would request a refund for any other events I was signed up for and would leave never to return.

    If this sport is so mickey mouse that we cannot trust our paid scorers then I am done with ATA tournaments. I will continue to pay my dues and support ATA and try to make some positive changes, but I'm not going to spend my money to travel and compete in an event that the outcome can be determined by spectators or by those in competition with me getting calls made against me. I am not so naive to believe our scorers never make mistakes. They do. So do professional baseball umps, basketball refs, every sport has it's bad breaks and good breaks. You man up and live with it, that is how life is. Unless we have computerized scoring that is fail safe that's life.

    I was taught long ago that a good sport does not challenge the officials decisions. My father wore me out for complaining on the way home that the ump had called me out when I was safe playing little league. He told me to be above that, to respect those who are in charge, to respect the rank, or office, or position regardless who the person is or your own opinion. It may be out of style with the "me" generation but he was right then and is right now. I am proud to say I've tried to always obey what he taught me whether it was baseball, football, trap, or any of the sports I've played and it goes the same way with police officers, judges, and as distasteful as it is now, Presidents.

    The soccer moms. I also see this getting worse. I love to see the youngsters at the trap shoots, don't mistake that. However we are dealing with the least disciplined generation ever who have been raised by the most absentee parenting ever. It is a wonder we have so many good young people shooting, no doubt the youth coaches are doing a wonderful job. The problem is with the parents. Maybe we need a program to teach the parents more about how trapshooting is conducted, the history, the tradition, and especially the etiquette.

    From some of the things I've seen lately I am expecting to see cheering from some parent when their kids opponent misses a target. Like the parents who whoop and hollar when an opposing player misses a free throw in basketball. Watching my grandchildren play baseball I've seen some of the worst conduct in my life from dads and moms berating the ump over his calls. So bad the ump came out into the stands to let them know he was not going to tolerate it. And then after the game instead of a couple of teams who had fun playing a game and being good sports about whoever won or lost, it looked like two street gangs about to rumble in the parking lot.

    I would hate to see that attitude show up in trap shooting but many of the kids play other sports as well and the parents get away with acting badly at those events. I've also noticed when a group shows up at the club to practice the parents expect the rest of the club to cater to them, it's not enough to shoot for half price they want to take over the range. Let's hope these are just growing pains as the kids get into the sport. I hope at least a few of them stay with trap shooting so the sport will have a future after all of us are gone.

    Done ranting, I hope some of you read this. I really would like to hear what you have to say. This is not a troll, I'm telling it from my heart exactly as I see it.
     
  20. SRT8

    SRT8 TS Member

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    BIGDON: You are referring to the 1998 Doubles Championship shootoff between Grizzly Adams and Karl Chadwell. Mr. Chadwell has to look to the governing body of the ATA for his gold ring for Grizzly Adams won the Championship fair and square.
     
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