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Sore Cheek

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by RRA, Jun 6, 2010.

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  1. RRA

    RRA TS Member

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    My 17 daughter shoots a Micro BT 99 with a 30 inch barrel. It has a Trap Dude recoil pad, Gracoil, and the comb is adjustable. We have adjusted the recoil pad down about 3/4 on an inch and have it on a slight angle to better fit her shoulder. The comb is only raised about 1/16 of an inch and shifted toward her face about 1/8 inch. This combination is comfortable for her and the targets are generally breaking dead center.

    The problem is her cheek/jaw is getting all beat up from shooting. The barrel is jumping and the comb is slapping her in the face. After 25 targets, her cheek had noticeable scuffing. Since she was shooting 200 singles in an ATA shoot we disperately contacted a gunsmith who was there. The only quick thing we could do was attach a 6 ounce barrel weight to the gun. She said the gun swung more smoothly and her cheek was not getting beat up as much and she finished the 200 rounds with a bruised cheek/jaw.

    So....

    1. If she likes the feel of high gun with the pad down 3/4 inch, how would changing the pitch on the stock help?

    2. The weight on her gun did not drop her average, but is this a good long term solution?

    3. I could raise the recoil pad back-up, but she doesn't like the feel of the gun with her it raised.

    4. Should I consider a longer barrel? We have another BT 99 with a 32 inch barrel she could try.

    5. Would porting the barrel in such a way to counter act the barrel raising be a way to go?
     
  2. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    A lubricant on her cheek could help. I like Body Glide. Vaseline will work but it tends to be messy. A bit of pitch to the pad might help. I would also look carefully at the cast. She is using "cast on" and that is not real common. Many shooters shoot a cast off stock and few use a cast on stock. With cast on she might have to smash the gun into her face and tilt her head over. Mount the gun with her head erect and he eyes closed. Have he bring the gun to her face, not her face to the gun and see how the beads line up.

    Pat Ireland
     
  3. shootsome

    shootsome Member

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    My Browning Cynergy and K-80 scuffed and bruised my face badly. I had the pitch changed on both guns by a professional stock fitter and still had the bruised face on both guns. I had cast off added via inletting to the K80 and still the problem. I was told I needed a custom made stock. Well that was way too much money for me plus the travel cost to the custom stock maker. So on both guns I went to a soft comb. Cost me $100 each and the bruising went away. I shoot both guns really well now. I've been told I'm putting a band aid on the real problem but it works well for me at reasonable cost. You might want to try it.
     
  4. oleolliedawg

    oleolliedawg Banned User Banned TS Supporters

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    Listen to shootsome. You can spend thousands of dollars on custom stocks and still achieve the same result with a soft comb!!
     
  5. Rollin Oswald

    Rollin Oswald Active Member

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    Cheek slap is most often caused by excessive barrel rise. Lowering the pad will increase it a bit but should not be enough to cause noticeably greater barrel rise.

    The most common causes of cheek slap are the wrong pitch on the stock and tilting the head down and forward to place the cheek on the comb. The next causes in line would be too much or too little cheek pressure on the comb and shooting with too much weight on the back foot (often caused by a gun that is too heavy).

    You mention that your daughter's cheek is being scuffed. The question is: is the comb moving to the rear or rising to cause the scuffing? (Most often cheek slap describes impact to the cheekbone by the comb, which seems not to be the case with your daughter.)

    Questions:

    Is your daughter's cheek(bone) making snug contact on the comb with her gun mounted?

    Does she mount the gun correctly with the top of the recoil pad extending slightly above her collarbone?

    Does she pull the gun snugly to her shoulder as she mounts it to avoid a sloppy gum mount?

    Is the stock's pitch such that the whole pad makes simultaneous contact with her shoulder pocket as the gun is being mounted?

    Does your daughter weigh so little that she is snapped violently to the rear when the gun recoils?

    Does she face targets quite directly when she shoots or is her body rotated about 40 degrees in the direction of her gun-mount side (clockwise for a right-handed shooter)?

    And the question asked by Pat above: Is your daughter able to shoot using a natural and upright, head and neck posture, or as he described it, "erect" shooting posture?

    Personally, I am not fond of comb pads. As noted above, they treat a symptom (cheek slap) and ignore its cause.

    Rollin
     
  6. RRA

    RRA TS Member

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    [​IMG]


    I appreciate all comments and suggestions. I have attached an image of her shooting yesterday. You can see the barrel weight attached to the barel. You can see her stance and it looks like she has her wait forward.
     
  7. Dave P

    Dave P TS Supporters TS Supporters

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    I had the same problem with my Citori Plus when I had to move the comb to the right. It cut into my cheek and in the winter it was a real b----. The solution I found was a layer of sorbathane(sp). It worked so nice I just left it on the comb. - --
     
  8. SilverShooter

    SilverShooter TS Member

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    My 13 yr old son shoots 12 GA 1 oz loads on his 391 RL with a similar stock work. However, the butte pad is lowered about 1 1/2 inches to raise the gun and is moved to the right about 1/2", the toe is out severely about 1", the monte carlo (i had it cut) is up about 1/3" and shifted about 1/2" AWAY from his face. Within the past 6 months, his LoP went from 13.5 to about 14.25 so having LOP adjustable butte platte was a smart move.

    From the one picture, the SG needs to go higher so not to see the heel and her feet are at 12 and 5 o'clock. Most instructors recommend 1230ish and about 230ish for right hand shooters to square them up to the target. Also, it appears the LOP may be too short since only the rear of her cheek (near her ear) contacts the stock instead of the whole length of the cheek. If her entire cheek contacted the stock, her cheek would probably be right on her right thumb, indicating the need for a longer LoP. She may be doing this inadvertantly to protect the front of her cheek from the kick.

    Also, what GA and load does she use? For my son the difference between a 3 DRAM 1/1/8 load, a 2 3/4 DRAM 1 oz load and 7/8 loads a made a huge difference in eliminating bruises and increasing the fun (he could shoot more!).

    Finally, it was a stock fitter who came up with the stock dimensions mentioned earlier. I never would have taken them out so severe yet his scores went from 15-17s, to 22-24s.
     
  9. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    RRA- Shooting form looks OK. Stock might be a bit too long bus she is growing and I would not do anything to it. I suggest three things. A dab of Vaseline on her cheek between each round of 25. Then begin to play with different pitches. Start with 1/8 inch added to the top of her recoil pad. Test this for 100 rounds. The added pitch will not be noticeable to her when she is shooting. The last thing is to have her grip the gun very firmly with both hands. Our hands and arms will absorb a lot of recoil.

    I suffered her problem for 30 years. Vaseline and a soft comb helped but I only won the battle by getting a Precision Fit Stock.

    Pat Ireland
     
  10. RRA

    RRA TS Member

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    I appreciate all the comments and suggestions. I have done the following:
    1. Adjusted the comb 1/8 inch away from her face.
    2. Softened up the Gracoil one turn.
    3. Adjusted her recoil pad about an 1/8 inch closer to her face.
    4. We will try vaseline at practice this week.
    5. I contacted my local gunsmith to get a TrapDude comb.
    6. I will leave the 6 ounce weight on the barrel of her gun for now.
    7. I want to mess around with the pitch, but I may have to wait till next week.

    She shoots this weekend again with singles and handicaps. So more to come...

    RRA
     
  11. goose2

    goose2 Well-Known Member

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    RRA, What is the name of the club where the picture was taking from. It sure looks familiar.
     
  12. Chango2

    Chango2 Active Member

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    I have also found that a comb parallel with the rib is a great help; some of the newer designs (like the Browning XS Skeet, don't let the name fool you, it is another Citori variant; one of a jillion, but does well at trap) have a parallel comb from the factory. Comb drop towards the rear of the gun, i.e., a backwards slope can push felt recoil energy into the cheekbone. Also, cast off per se did not help me; made one gun more "accurate" with alignment, but it is a field gun with which I goof around with now and then...a 303 Beretta, at skeet. But it bites, although aligns my eye. I'd guess looking at the cost effective fixes first would really help; sometimes pitch makes a huge difference...And if this factory gun just does not work for her...well, maybe a Precision Fit Stock or a Soft Touch or a JS Aircushion??? Cast off, as pointed out to me, is not the same as offset. Offset features the entire comb line in proper alignment; I have some of my guns with a "cheapo" fix with inlet to allow cast. Sure, they are more accurate, but I can't shoot them long 'cause they bite. The comb is merely angled away from my face in those situations and that bites.

    But...you may get really lucky with a mere pad of sorbothane on the comb, a pitch change, etc. I really feel empathy re. your dilemma, been there, done that, and finally figured out what works for me re. stock dimension.
     
  13. Anchorsteam

    Anchorsteam TS Member

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    Getting 'hit' by the gun can cause head-lifting which actually can make the problem worse. As has been suggested, try lighter loads: lighter dram & weight. Soft comb may be the only answer. You can probably get a comb cut, then have a soft comb built instead of modding the wood. Should do it quick since she is ingraining her early shooting habits now which will be hard to fix later. Vaseline might cause her to slide around on the comb and create 'rear sight' issues. There's some kind of 'shave stick' that some shooters use instead. It's a dry stick instead of goo.
     
  14. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

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    Maybe you could find a gun that is more user friendly for her. Another solution for the problem would be a Precision Fit Stock, expensive but totally solves the problem. HMB
     
  15. BigM-Perazzi

    BigM-Perazzi Well-Known Member

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    My 2c worth. To me the comb slopes down and is not parallel with the bore. Try and flatten it out some. Stock a bit too long.
     
  16. RRA

    RRA TS Member

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    Couple more comments and I appreciate your feedback...

    1. She is shooting 1 oz 2 3/4 dram (1180 fps) Winchester AA factory loads at competitions. During practice I load AA hulls, Windjammer wads, Titewad powder 16.6 grains and the recipe looks to be the same 1180 fps.

    2. She has shot this gun for two years. Since buying it, I have added the adjustable comb, added the Trapdude recoil pad, added the weight on the barrel, she has put powder on her face and comb for a year.But still bruises and scuffs.

    3. Last night I compared the pitch to a standard BT 99 Micro and her gun has been adjusted on the pitch. The bottom has been cut in about 2 degrees.

    4. I have a hunch she may be not holding the gun tight enough.

    I have about $1500 into the BT 99 now and it still kicks her. Is it time to bail out on the gun and get another one, or spend again on a soft comb? I do like the break action guns, but maybe I should consider something else.

    Her team is planning on going to the Scholastic Competion in Sparta next year. So, I have one year to get it right. Right now I am spinning my wheels...

    By the way the image of her shooting is at the Golden Spike Trap Club in Utah. It was taken last weekend at the Utah State Scholastic Championship.
     
  17. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

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    The best way to check the pitch is to stand the gun up in a doorway. With the butt flat on the floor and the top of the receiver touching the wall the muzzle should be about 3 inches away from the wall. That way you know it has the proper negative pitch. HMB
     
  18. Bernie K

    Bernie K Member

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    Years ago I had a SKB600, still have the gun. I went to the NYState shoot and the gun beat the snot out of me on the first day. I went to a vender that had the Edwards recoil reducer and had it installed. Problem sloved. The Edwards can be rotated in the stock to push the gun away from your face, it works great and the price is right. Bernie
     
  19. Trap2

    Trap2 Well-Known Member

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    RRA..... A lot of real good advice here. The dry powder that some shooters put on their cheeks is "Remington speed stick", I believe. It may help a little, but will not eliminate the cause. Before you get too carried away doing all these things to the stock, may I suggest you simply add a spacer or two to the REAR post of the adjustable comb first? This will help the recoil to be forced down, away from her cheek, when she shoots. It will also tell you, in a hurry, if the comb is set up properly for her..... Dan Thome (Trap2)
     
  20. RRA

    RRA TS Member

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    HMB,
    I just did as you suggested. If I did it correctly, I took off the pad and had the the Gracoil Plate flat on the floor. Keeping the plate flat on the floor I moved it to the door jam. The rear of the rib above the receiver hit with the end bead (muzzle) on the barrel out about 1/8 inch from the wall.

    If I put the top of the stock next to the wall along with touching the rib above the receiver, the muzzle is out 2 7/8 inches from the wall.

    Trap 2,

    Per your suggestion I brought the rear of the comb up about 3/16 inch higher than the front.

    We are now off to the gun club in about an hour. We will do some testing tonight.

    RRA
     
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