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Something we were discussing at Ohio State Shoot

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by Dr.Longshot, Jun 24, 2010.

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  1. Dr.Longshot

    Dr.Longshot Banned Banned

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    Shooters at our table under the food pavillion were discussing money and proffesional shooters, industry shooters hot shots Etc. Money going to shooters who give shooting lessons and classes and top dogs taking money from State Shoots.

    They asked how it could be controlled?

    I am going to use Ohio as an example.

    I suggested Money options be in 2 categories, Out of state shooters have their own option monies, Lewis, 25s, 50s, yardage purses Etc.

    Ohio State shooters have their own options, that can be won only by Ohio Residents.

    Calcuttas would be the exception, available to all entries shooters regardless of state of residency,

    Each state would have their own money to shoot for without having BIG DOGS from other states coming in and pick their Cherries.

    Now I am not referring to open categories, there would be no OPEN OPTIONS Except Calcuttas.

    This was well recieved and no one had given a thought to it, it sounded like a good idea and they were wanting to know how to proceed with it.

    This would give every state's residents to win their monies that were on their own states RESIDENT MONEY OPTIONS.

    Out of state residents would compete for their own money non-resident options.


    Now I am asking every state shooter that responds to use his real name and his State of residence and voice his opinion and reason for his opinion.
    If you cannot post your real name and state do not respond.

    This only applies to State Shoots.

    The Grand American options as usual.


    Gary Bryant
    Dr.longshot
     
  2. pullbangloss

    pullbangloss Active Member

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    I would like to see a "Pro" class established which would solve this issue for all state shoots and maybe even the Grand. This is no longer the AMATEUR Trapshooting Association. Now how to do this is a whole other issue in it's self.

    As far as establishing In-State/Out of State options, I think it would work great for Ohio shooters. You guys play the money. But it sure would suck for the 99.5% of non-resident shooters attending the shoot. My feelings are the non-residents would not play the money thus giving the "Pro's" reason not to attend in the future.

    Should be the start of a very interesting thread.

    Matt Krizinski
    Michigan
     
  3. Rich219

    Rich219 Active Member

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    I'm still new to this whole ATA thing but how would having resident and non-resident classes stop the "big dogs" from winning all the money. Every state is going to have a few shooters that are far better than a majority of the other shooters from their own state and it will be this group of shooters who still win the money.

    A "Pro" class sounds like the most realistic possibility.

    -Rich Knarr, NY
     
  4. Lyle

    Lyle Member

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    Having the money for in-state only will discourage top shooters from attending the Ohio State shoot. I am guessing that the top dogs come to Ohio for three reasons: 1. All-American Points 2. Money 3. (and this is a distant reason) Ohio puts on a good shoot.

    If your goal is to keep the top dogs from taking your daily fees you will succeed in this because many of them will not come to Ohio if they cannot get some of their bait back. I talked to a guy I know from Idaho who is at your shoot and he said that it will cost him nearly 3K to attend your shoot. Do you think he or others will attend and pay 3K simply for All-American Points? I don't. They will find another large shoot where the money is open and if they shoot well they can recoup some of their expenses.

    It looks good on paper but reminds me a bit of the current political powers.......punish those with wealth, or in this case, ability!

    Lyle Bayley
    Nampa, Idaho (Where the money is open to all shooters)
     
  5. Joe Si

    Joe Si Member

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    Gentlemen, This discussion regarding our top shooters making money from lessons and stuff was dicussed back in the 1980's throughout the country by the ATA. I remember being at the Spring Grand in Phoinex (spelling?) where all your concerns were heard and discussed.

    As mentioned in an earlier thread, the costs of transportation, housing, food,guns and ammo outweigh the monies wagered on a particular event.

    Regards,

    Joe Sissano
     
  6. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Many shooters now complain about the purses being very small. This idea would make them smaller. If we were to take the top 25 shooters and place them in a Pro Class, there are another 25 shooters who would simply move up to the top 25 spots. The top shooters realize that there is a nest of other lesser known shooters right behind them ready to jump up and bite them if they make a mistake. These excellent second level shooters are willing to move to the top.

    Forming a Pro class would simply change the names of the top money winners but the average shooters would still be left out. I like to shoot with the top shooters. Most are fun and interesting to talk with and I learn things from them. I very rarely beat them and that's OK- they shoot better than I do.

    I like going to a shoot and competing with the very best. I admire them.

    Pat Ireland
     
  7. Mr. D

    Mr. D Member

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    The Amateur Trapshooting Association thing always had me wondering how someone could shoot all their life and be a solid 98-99 kind of guy or gal and still be considered a amateur.

    Could a shooter in the US Open or Olympics be a current member of the ATA?
     
  8. over/under

    over/under Member

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    Gary, is there ant added $ for non-residents now?
     
  9. markdenis

    markdenis TS Member

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    Pat

    This is just a guess, but I would bet you don't play any money with the exception of the Lewis once in awhile. For many, many shooters this sport it "IS" about the money. It is not about rubbing shoulders with the "should be pros" or maybe a better term used in all other sports "HUSTLERS".

    One could say "another group of participants would move up and take their place", but if all sports had that attitude, we would live in a world without any sports at all!

    I believe one of the reasons for "professional divisions" in sports is to stop the "hustler" from destroying its existence.

    Mark Rounds
     
  10. kgun_shooter

    kgun_shooter Member

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    My opinion is that we establish a 'PRO' class and that's where they compete, period! It's not right for people who work and only get to go to a few shoots having to compete against these guys who do nothing but shoot all year round. If they receive any type of sponsorship from gun manufacturers, shell companies, etc. then they need to be put in a pro class. We use to have an industry class.

    Just my opinion.
     
  11. scott calhoun

    scott calhoun Well-Known Member

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    Mark -

    Your post can't be serious, can it? Hustlers? Really?

    I'd like to see the names of all the hustlers in the ATA that have won thousands of dollars of other peoples money. Maybe you could post them.

    I've been to a bunch of ATA shoots since I started registering targets in 2003 - local shoots, state shoots, satellite grands, THE grand, and I've yet to be hustled. In fact I've never been forced to play any options, and every dollar I've turned over to the gun clubs hosting shoots has been voluntary on my part.

    You certainly can't be calling people like Leo, Harlan, Phil, Kay hustlers, can you? You should look up the definition of hustler.

    There's a simple answer to the entire issue - if you are not comfortable with other people winning your money, don't play the option.

    Scott
     
  12. kolarshooter1981

    kolarshooter1981 TS Member

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    I know Ohio put on a great shoot, and i cant say that for any other state cause ive never been to another state to shoot, and im sure the "Big Dogs" come here for their various reason, such as points, money, ect. I say leave the classes as it is. The Pro shooters and "Big Dogs" are good shots and i respect them for their ability, but to make a whole new class, i think its fine as it is. I dont play all the options though either, but when i have, if i make a few bucks here and there im happy. I still find my worst day of trapshooting better than going to work, cause its a hobby.
     
  13. markdenis

    markdenis TS Member

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    Scott

    It is not about other people winning my money...it is about professionals winning my money. You want to discuss definitions? Maybe you should look up the definition of Amateur.

    Mark Rounds
     
  14. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Mark- You are correct, I am not a money shooter. I work 7 days a week. I had three appointments last year on Christmas day. This Sunday, I have an appointment at 6:30 PM after I shoot my local club. When I go to a shoot, the only money I think about is what I am not making because my office is closed. My typical work week is around 85 hours. I think about money during that time. I am not interested in money when I go to a shoot.

    I do recognize that for many, the money is an important part of a shoot.

    Pat Ireland
     
  15. SMOKEIT

    SMOKEIT Well-Known Member

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    -----I do not think forming a Pro Class is a good idea. In general I really like the rules covering trap shooting and how State shoots are run. I hear a lot of complaints but there will be complaints no matter what the rules are. All in all I am impressed by how well most trap shoots are run. Give it a rest!.....Lloyd Tuggle
     
  16. scott calhoun

    scott calhoun Well-Known Member

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    Mark -

    Don't change the subject. You called a bunch of people hustlers, all I'm saying is that it's not fair to call the "big dogs" hustlers - because they are not.

    You can call them pros if you want, although I think some could make the argument that they don't make their living from shooting registered targets. They make their living by conducting clinics. It's a fine line no doubt, but the reality is that the big dogs don't shoot registered targets because they are good teachers, they teach because they are good shooters. The fact that people are willing to pay them to learn how to shoot better has no impact on their ability to break targets and win registered shooting events.

    Scott
     
  17. BIGDON

    BIGDON Well-Known Member

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    Make some program adjustments. 1. All added money goes to residents. 2. Only certain purses are available to residents only, including resident only lewis. These 2 items happen now at certain state shoots. The purpose of a state shoot is for the residents of that state and non-residents are guests. All priorities should go to the residents, they should not have to compete with non-residents for trophies and or money.

    If you want your state shoot to be huge then give away cars, carts, guns and large purses and you will get everyone with a gun coming. Your state has to decide what it wants, remember your state shoot should be a reflection of what you the shooters want.

    Don
     
  18. markdenis

    markdenis TS Member

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    Scott

    We could argue this subject forever, and I am not changing the subject.

    This is the one accepted definition of "hustler". " To misrepresent one's skill in (a game or activity) in order to deceive someone, especially in gambling."

    Many of them are breaking amateur rules by giving instructions for pay and deriving their income from the sport.

    I don't give instructions for money...I don't derive my income from the sport...And I don't misrepresent myself contending that I don't do these things which would gain me unfair skills over other "AMATEURS".

    Mark Rounds
     
  19. Bob Hawkes

    Bob Hawkes Well-Known Member

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    Well put Scott.
     
  20. scott calhoun

    scott calhoun Well-Known Member

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    Mark -

    So if I understand your argument correctly . . . are you saying that if those guys stopped taking payment for giving instruction, or otherwise running businesses affiliated with the sport of trapshooting, that you would no longer consider them pros?

    I'm also not sure anyone has misrepresented themselves.

    I'd still like to gain a better understanding of how offering clinics or operating a business affiliated with trapshooting (like selling guns) has an impact on anyone's ability to win registered trapshooting events. There are a lot of people who derive their income from the sport that never come close to winning anything substantial at a registered shoot - certainly nothing that would lead anyone to think they were a pro - yet they derive their income from the sport.

    Scott
     
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