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socialized medicine

Discussion in 'Off Topic Threads' started by robervl, Jun 8, 2011.

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  1. robervl

    robervl TS Member

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    I have a young friend at work that is in favor of govt. supplied health care. She claims the CDC says the USA is 25th in infant mortality among industrialized nations and our health care is not that good. I explained that Canada has govt. health care and anybody that needs immediate care comes to the USA. My question is does anyone have figures from a reputable source that dispute what she says?
    Thanks in advance
     
  2. bigdogtx

    bigdogtx Well-Known Member

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    The report she touts addresses infant mortality as the measure of "quality" in the healthcare system,,,,what it does NOT address is how many of our infants that die due to drug abuse by the mother, which is a HIGH factor in the amount of the infants that die here,,,,another factor is COST, which ours is much higher, but so is the quality,,,,all you have to do is research our survival rate after diagnosis of many cancers....

    Just use google and you would be amazed,,,,just look at WHO does the study and what they want to get shown for THEIR agenda,,,,if she thinks it is so good, have her go to another country with a grave illness,,,,bet she wouldn't jump at that chance....
     
  3. GW22

    GW22 Active Member

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    The word "indusrtrialized" affects the results. Click on the CIA WORLD FACT BOOK link above. The US is 47th overall (note the numbering on the website is in reverse).

    In any case it's not a good indicator for the quality of a country's healthcare. Bigdogtx is exactly right. In this country we heavily subsidize breeding by the underclass and their rampant drug abuse and irresponsibility skews the statistics.

    Our healthcare is obscenely expensive, especially with the gouging of insurance companies whose executives sometimes get paid $100,000,000 per year, but anybody who doesn't think the US has the best healthcare QUALITY on earth hasn't really looked into it very hard (or traveled much internationally). There's a reason that the wealthiest people on earth come here when they have serious life-threatening illness.

    -Gary
     
  4. pyrdek

    pyrdek Well-Known Member

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    One other factor is that superior pre-natal care will prolong the life of a fetus that would not normally even be able to survive and would have resulted in a miscarriage which then would not show up as a birth. Once born, these infants, because of the health problems utilize much more in medical resources than may be provided, or even available, in other countries. Not all countries will bother to expend precious medical resources on cases where the results are almost certainly doomed to failure.
     
  5. b12

    b12 Well-Known Member

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    You get what you can afford. Which most people is what little you insurance will allow. To the american without insurance, On the front they get great care. Cause the taxpayers pickup the tab. To the illegals they get great care cause they may get to vote someday. Wild Bill
     
  6. robervl

    robervl TS Member

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    Thanks for the info
     
  7. Traders

    Traders Well-Known Member

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    According to the current CIA data on their web site, the US is ranked number 50 in longevity at 78.37 years and number 46 in infant mortality (abortions are not counted in those figures) If anyone wants to question their data they can contact the CIA directly. Personally I believe them and that the data is a reasonable although not perfect measure of the American health care system relative to other systems.
    And, Americans spend more money per person on health care than any other country. Given the statistics, it's hard to believe most of us are getting our money's worth.

    Every survey that has been done in Canada about their health care indicates that people are generally happy with the system and there sure hasn't been any attempt to go back to private health care. For those of you unfamiliar with Canadian medicine, there is no private health care. Everyone is paid by the government. The reason that some Canadians travel to the US for medical service is that they can afford US prices and don't want to wait in line. Nothing is free. Canadians' overall spending for medical service is lower, but it can take longer to get.

    Some wealthy people from other countries come to the US for medical treatment because they can buy the best available. The best is only available to those who can pay. Switzerland is also a common destination for "medical tourists" because the Swiss can provide outstanding and immediate medical.
    service for those with plenty of money.

    Most Americans think that the US health care system is the best in the world. I believe that the numbers do not confirm that. For me and my family and I would guess for many on this site, we are getting the best. We all know if you can afford to shoot trap regularly, you probably have more discretionary income than the average American citizen. But, we are a small percentage of the population.

    Personally, if I had to choose between a government "bureaucrat" deciding what health care I got versus an employee of a for profit insurance company, I would go the government way every time. In my experience, the government employee mostly wants to do a decent job and not make waves. The for profit employee can get a bonus or a raise if his department comes in under budget. I don't want to contribute to making his budget look good and getting him a raise or a bonus.

    It is true, as Bigdog has indicated, cancer survival rates are better in the US although as the CIA reports, our overall life expectancy is still low compared to other industrialized countries.
     
  8. Chichay

    Chichay TS Supporters TS Supporters

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    Statistics... we used to have fun 'proving' a lot of ridiculous stuff as an undergraduate in engineering, and have since learned to take it with a grain of salt. And as a physician, if I or my wife get sick, we're getting our care here in the US. Chichay
     
  9. Traders

    Traders Well-Known Member

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    chichay,

    Since you are suggesting that you do not believe the CIA statistics that I quoted about US longevity and infant mortality, I am wondering what statistical data sources do you use regarding longevity and infant mortality.

    Also, as a physician, I am assuming that your household income is above the US average of $37,913 as reported by the US Census Bureau for 2008. That would mean, as I suggested in my posting, that your family can afford the best the US has to offer which is very good indeed and which is a very good reason to stay in the US for medical care. And, it is unlikely you would ever find the need to be a medical tourist. And, like me, you never spent an interminable amount of time in a hospital emergency ward being triaged because you or a member of your family just wasn't sick enough for immediate emergency care.
     
  10. bigdogtx

    bigdogtx Well-Known Member

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    Traders,,,,and I am sure as a physician you realize that not much emphasis in the CIA report regarding obesity,,,,this also has a high mortality for the citizens of the US,,,,while Canadians think their system is "good", I would not trade ours for theirs as it is definately NOT better than ours currently is,,,,although if husseincare stands, we will soon find out...
     
  11. Traders

    Traders Well-Known Member

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    bigdog,

    I am not a physician. In rereading my last post, I can see where that could be inferred. It was a bad choice of words on my part. I was referring to Chichay's posting who said he was a physician.

    In any case, the CIA data only reported longevity, not cause of death. Obviously there are many "self induced" causes of death, but the numbers still stand. For example, in the US, according to the World Health Organization, we drink more alcohol than Canadians do and statistically, alcohol is by far the most dangerous "drug" consumed in the US. My reading tells me that the demographics of Canada are similar to ours although probably a smaller percentage of Hispanics, legal and otherwise.

    I never suggested that the Canadian system is better than our is currently. It certainly is not for me and as I indicated in my original post probably not for most of the people who read this site. But, if I couldn't afford the best health care that the US has to offer and most people can't, I would sure think the Canadian system looked pretty good.

    Remember, Medicare is a government system, and I believe that most people are happy with it. There's a lot of ways to "skin a cat" and Medicare is only one. You may not like to new health care system approved by Congress but I do know that there is a very similar system in Massachusetts that was initiated under Mitt Romney, And, according to the last survey in Massachusetts, most people like it.

    You may believe that the US system is the "best in the world" for most of it's people, but even that is true, which the data does not support, we are paying more for it than any other country and it's a growing and onerous percentage of our total tax base and personal expenditures. We can't continue to to that.
     
  12. bigdogtx

    bigdogtx Well-Known Member

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    Sadly,,,,when something is "free" recipients will like it,,,,If Medicare is so great,,,,why are many doctors NOT TAKING NEW MEDICARE PATIENTS????

    I would wager all my money that Medicare recipients would like it even more if they have NO copay at all,,,,wanna bet????

    As far as the the Romney care goes,,,,where did its "cost saving" come in????If you look at the cost predictions and reality,,,,the predictions were a pipe dream,,,,which will also come into reality with hussein care,,,,

    A Mercedes costs more than a Yugo as well,,,,the government nor I have to provide the BEST care, or cars, to those that are not citizens of this country, or on the back of our future generations,,,,your correlation of illegal mexicans being similar in Canada and here is a dream....
     
  13. birdogs

    birdogs TS Member

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    When all doctors become de facto salaried employees of the government, who would want to be a doctor? For smart people, it would become a low paying job with a high entry cost, both in time and expense. Why not pick another career with higher financial rewards, less time spent in education, and lower financial costs such as student loans?

    Are these the unintended consequences of government healthcare?
     
  14. Chichay

    Chichay TS Supporters TS Supporters

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    Traders,

    Notwithstanding my undergraduate experience that statistics can be manipulated to prove anything one wants, I will try to be more specific in addressing your concerns regarding the quality of US medical care in view of our population's longevity and infant mortality (as compared to other countries). Longevity largely depends on genes and health. 'Health care' is not the same as 'medical care', no matter how many times the two are confused in the media or in politics. Determinants of health include factors physicians cannot do much about; genes, lifestyle, obesity, diet, habits, etc. There is a group of people in Tibet that regularly live to be over 100 yrs old. You'll be hard pressed to convince anyone that Tibetan medical care is superior to ours. You may know similar groups of people right in your community (probably not 100, but close, more like the mid 90's), usually running in families. Medical care quality has more to do with what happens when you are already sick. Notice that people do not come to this country for longevity; they come here for medical care.

    US infant mortality statistics are heavily skewed by maternal illicit drug use, occurring predominantly in inner cities.

    Judging from the way you write, you strike me as an intelligent, educated person yet you have the same disconnect as the know-nothing population when it comes to your observations and your politics. You talk of triage in the ER. Why do you think doctors triage? So they can have a coffee break? They triage because of necessity... they are getting swamped! They have to make a decision as to who needs their attention the most. And what do you think will happen to triage when some 40 million potential patients are added into the strained system without additional resources (manpower or $)? Yet you seem to be advocating for such a scenario. Mindblowing!

    Chichay
     
  15. Traders

    Traders Well-Known Member

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    bigdog,

    I never said that the percentage of Hispanics in Canada was the same as in the US. On the contrary, I suggest the opposite. From my last post, "My reading tells me that the demographics of Canada are similar to ours although probably a smaller percentage of Hispanics, legal and otherwise".

    I think you are absolutely right about the ability of American's use of Medicare. There needs to be a stronger connection between use and cost for the user. Unfortunately, as you correctly hinted, people don't really want to pay more and that includes you and me, or maybe just me. We need to have some way of limiting extreme, very expensive, and unlikely to be of noticeable value government funded medical care that individuals are unwilling to pay for but insist on having.

    I never said the the Medical system in Massachusetts was cheaper. Nor did I suggest that the medical system approved by Congress would be any cheaper. It's important to remember that we are already spending more of our income on medical services than any developed country and I believe that the data indicate that we are not getting our money's worth.

    birdogs,

    As I understand the medical system in Canada, everyone providing medical services in Canada are employees of the government. That includes doctors and hospitals. There is no private health care. I don't know how they are paid but I am told they are well paid, have a better quality of life, and they don't have the significant paperwork costs of their US colleagues.

    In Canada, the "entry cost" of becoming a doctor appears to be significantly lower than it is in the US. While it is very hard to compare the cost of medical schools in between the US and Canada, I think it is pretty clear the all university schooling for citizens, undergraduate and professional, is significantly cheaper in Canada. Although I am not a physician, I conclude that for the ordinary doctor, that under the Canadian system it easier (cheaper) to become a doctor, the working conditions are better, and they have the security of no personal medical malpractice law suits.

    I have never read any reports that would indicate that the quality of medical training, hospitals or doctors in Canada is any less than it is in the US. And, health statistics would indicate that it is not. If you have, I would be very interested in reading them.
     
  16. bigdogtx

    bigdogtx Well-Known Member

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    Traders,,,,you need to pay more attention to birddogs first sentence,,,,statistics can be swayed to the outcome you want,,,,just look at any political poll,,,it is all in how the question is asked,,,,if you think the Canadian system is so good,,,,just run yourself up there for your next catistrophic illness,,,,they will see you and it won't cost you a thing,,,although you may have to wait a while for the MRI, EEG, CT, etc....
     
  17. crusha

    crusha TS Member

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    When Herman Cain gets elected President...I want him to pick me as his Director of the Bureau of Health Statistics.
     
  18. Bisi

    Bisi TS Member

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    Traders, to save the rest of us a lot of time, and aggravation, I suggest you put some numbers in your handle. I suggest something like "Traders 99"
     
  19. Chichay

    Chichay TS Supporters TS Supporters

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    Traders,

    "Everyone providing medical services in Canada are employees of the government. That includes doctors and hospitals. I don't know how they are paid but I am told they are well paid, have a better quality of life, and they don't have the significant paperwork costs of their US colleagues. And they
    have the security of no personal medical malpractice law suits... I have never
    read any reports that would indicate that the quality of medical training, hospitals or doctors in Canada is any less than it is in the US."

    All factually correct statements. Canadian physicians are government employees, putting in government work weeks (hence a better quality of life for themselves but questionably for their patients), relatively free from malpractice suits (as government employees are), and without the burden of the paperwork that is usually mandated by the US/State government, insurance companies, and documentation to ward-off litigious patients. If US physicians are to work reduced hours, you'll need more physicians to take up the slack. Where are they going to come from?

    As to your last statement in quote, I ask why well-to-do Canadians cross our border and spend a fortune of their own money for something they can get for free in their own country? What are they hoping to buy that the Canadian medical system cannot give them at any cost? Certainly not quality of care if you believe you own quote. The answer is TIME. They simply do not believe they can afford to wait, not without jeopardizing their health or their lives. Not when the average waiting time for surgery is measured in months. The not well-to-do Canadians have no choice but wait.

    These are some of the 'disconnects' I have earlier alluded to. You offer some factual statements but fail to follow where those statements lead to or what they imply.

    I have no illusions of changing your mind, and freely admit to probable bias as a US-based physician. There is room for improvement in our medical care, but socialized medicine will not cure its ills. Rather, it'll exacerbate them. I welcome your comment and thank you for your time.

    Chichay
     
  20. Traders

    Traders Well-Known Member

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    bigdog.

    The first sentenacne is birddogs posting was:

    "When all doctors become de facto salaried employees of the government, who would want to be a doctor?"

    I answered in my response post:

    "As I understand the medical system in Canada, everyone providing medical services in Canada are employees of the government. That includes doctors and hospitals. There is no private health care. I don't know how they are paid but I am told they are well paid, have a better quality of life, and they don't have the significant paperwork costs of their US colleagues." My statement was just stating facts as i know them." What fact did I state that you think is incorrect.

    In my earlier postings I said:

    "I never suggested that the Canadian system is better than ours is currently. It certainly is not for me "

    "For me and my family and I would guess for many on this site, we are getting the best. We all know if you can afford to shoot trap regularly, you probably have more discretionary income than the average American citizen."

    Since I, fortunately, can afford the best the US has to offer, which is very good, why would I want to go to Canada for medical services.

    Bigdog, I am trying to understand your position on this issue. Do you believe that the American health care system is the best in the world for most of its citizens? If you do, what information do you have to back that opinion. I have given the sources for the hard statistics I have used.
     
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