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Slower Speed or less Payload?

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by hunter44, Nov 27, 2009.

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  1. hunter44

    hunter44 Well-Known Member

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    Shooting from the 22 to 25 yard line, & you want to keep recoil to a minimum would you rather shoot a 1 oz. load @ approx. 1225 fps. or a 1 1/8 oz. load @ approx. 1125 fps.? Yes, I know that you can use several types of recoil reducing devices but let's just compare the two factors.
     
  2. Beretta687EELL

    Beretta687EELL Well-Known Member

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    Personally, I'd prefer the 1 1/8 oz. load. Bill Malcolm
     
  3. GordonWood421

    GordonWood421 TS Member

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    I'd go with added velocity .

    Since reducing to 7/8 oz loads with the same amount of PROMO or Rex I , I am really impressed by the the way targets are "hammered" . Granted they are not ink-blots but the increase in comfort combined with a less expensive round and the results at the POI are quite satisfying .

    Charlie
     
  4. Chichay

    Chichay TS Supporters TS Supporters

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    The farther from the traphouse the target is intercepted, the worse the faster but scantier payload will perform.
     
  5. halfmile

    halfmile Well-Known Member

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    Chichay, wrong.

    Kinetic energy is kinetic energy no matter how you package it.

    An ounce of 8 shot travelling faster could very well equal the K. E. of a 1 & 1/8 ounce load of 7 & 1/2 shot.

    The kinetic energy striking a target is related to mass and velocity of the pellets, no mater what kind and how many.

    The real secret is to point the damn gun in the right place. With the proper choke. I have also found lighter loads will pattern a little tighter in the same choke.

    HM
     
  6. Dr.Longshot

    Dr.Longshot Banned Banned

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    HALF MILE I think you need to go to a Physics class on this subject. The larger pellet has more retained energy at a given distance.

    Like comparing a Chevy 283 engine to a 454 brute torque will take it every time.


    Gary Bryant
    Dr.longshot
     
  7. Chichay

    Chichay TS Supporters TS Supporters

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    HM,

    We are not talking about idiosyncracies of a SPECIFIC barrel and choke. You are certainly right about pointing the gun in the correct direction, however. Heck, you can take the bird with a 1/4oz slug IF you aim it right, but how likely is that to happen? Yes, I understand some barrel/choke combination will throw a "better" pattern with lighter&faster payload. But will all same barrel/choke combinations do that? I do not think so. If we change only two variables, MV and shot weight: 1oz #8 shot=410 pellets. Assuming a MV of 1255fps, KE in ft/lbs per pellet at 40yds is 1.07. 410X1.07=438.7 total KE for this load@40yds. 1.125oz #8 shot=461 pellets. Assuming a MV of 1165fps, energy in ft/lbs per pellet at 40yds is 0.98. 461X0.98=451.78 total KE for this load@40yds. Lastly, if we are to assume that there is a minimum KE required to break a "bird" at a given distance (e.g. 40yds) my bet goes to the load with greater total KE.

    Chichay
     
  8. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    Chichay, why don't you load some of both and tell us what you find at those ranges? I'd certainly be interested in reading your thoughts as well after the experiment! Don't believe anything you hear/read and only half of what you see and you'll do just dandy!

    Hap
     
  9. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    hunter 44 asked about the comparative recoil. A simple estimation of comparative recoil of different loads can quickly be determined by multiplying shot weight by velocity. The lower product would indicate lower recoil. This simple method does not account for shot acceleration but it is a reasonably accurate comparative recoil estimation.

    It is true that the heaver shot will retain a bit more kinetic energy than smaller shot, but even the small shot retains much more kinetic energy than is required to break a target. As long as the shot retains the minimum energy to break the target, adding more energy does not break the target any better.

    Pat Ireland
     
  10. spitter

    spitter Well-Known Member TS Supporters

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    I'm partial shooting light and slow, in general to minimize actual recoil. There is an equation (I've listed it previously) which also incorporates the weight of the firearm...

    They use 24 gr. in international, in which the targets are typically faster and farther... so go light and use a heavier gun or a barrel weight...

    regards all,

    jay
     
  11. hunter44

    hunter44 Well-Known Member

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    The two loads that I listed will both produce slightly more than 12 ft/lbs. when fired in a 10 pound trap gun.........I am just interested in opinions between the two. Which trade off would you prefer if wanting to stay with low recoil loads?
     
  12. halfmile

    halfmile Well-Known Member

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    I have no way to prove it, but I did read that to break a target you had to have more than 2 lb/ft of KE.

    So counting the pellets, we find a one once 8 load has just about as many pellets as a 1 & 1/8 oz 7 & 1/2 load.

    Assuming the faster speed of the one ounce load pellets (greater KE), and equal pellet count to strike the target, There should not be much difference.

    My very analytical friend, who was a good AA shooter, in his last couple years found the one ounce load equal as far as his scores were concerned. Drove me nuts talking about it. Incidentally, his assigned yardage was 26 & 1/2. He dided before he got the last 1/2.

    I personally will shoot a fast one ounce back to about 23 yards. After that my brain insists I shoot 7 & 1/2 heavy at 1235. Remington Nitro to be exact. My brain also insists that i look off the target occasionally so the lesser shooters on my squad will not be embarrassed by my perfection.

    Waiting for Neil W. to chime in.

    HM
     
  13. wayneo

    wayneo Active Member

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    If you took the weight of a #8 pellet, and used the standard mechanics formula of Kinetic Energy: KE=1/2 MV^2, you will get:

    1 #8 pellet at 1125 fps = 3.99773394 Joules, 2.94857723 Ft/Lbs

    1 #8 pellet at 1225 fps = 4.7400292296 Joules, 3.4960661462244 Ft/Lbs

    1 #8 pellet at 2250 fps = 15.99 Joules, 11.86 Ft/lbs

    As you can see with the formula, having the same mass and twice the speed, has four times the energy.

    I would just see which one patterns better at handicap distances. Wayne
     
  14. Chichay

    Chichay TS Supporters TS Supporters

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    You're right Wayne, but what you left unsaid was four times the energy=four times the recoil. Doubling the mass only doubles the recoil. So unless a shooter can take unlimited recoil, he'll run into the law of diminishing returns faster when he ups the speed vs the payload.
     
  15. JerryP

    JerryP Active Member

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    Given those two choices I would go with the 1 1/8 @ 1145. I wouldn't call 1 oz at 1225 a light load. 1 oz at 1145 sounds better. I don't understand why people think they need to speed up a 1 ounce load. A number 8 pellet going 1145 doesn't care how big the payload is.
     
  16. Pull & Mark

    Pull & Mark Well-Known Member

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    Hunter44, I would rather use your One oz. load over your l l/8th oz. load. You may even like to slow it down to 1,200 fps w/ the one oz. load. It'll work fine if you point the gun right. Bottom line is WHAT you want to shoot, not us. If you believe it, it will break. Broke all 25 targets the first time I shot from the 27 yard line in practice with one oz. factory loads at 1,200 fps. They were #8's shot as well. I don't like recoil and if I shoot one oz. loads I don't need a recoil device. Keep it simple. Good Luck and Break-em all. Jeff
     
  17. zzt

    zzt Well-Known Member

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    Hunter44, you didn't mention choke. With a choke that gave a high PE I'd shoot the 1oz load, although I think it faster than necessary. With a lower PE choke I'd use the 1 1/8oz load.

    Given the recoil limits you state, I'd rather shoot 1oz #8 @ 1180fps. Why? Because it provides enough energy to do the job from 27 yards, and it is a standard loading. I like to keep everything going the same velocity, and I want to be able to switch between my reloads and factory without adjustment.
     
  18. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    I'd take the "larger payload" option, since the less shot you have the more accurate you have to be. If I were always "in the center of 'em" my scores probably wouldn't change with one ounce, but since I'm not, I'd expect a lower score (if the added comfort of one ounce didn't let me shoot better in general.)

    This requirement - that with less shot you have to shoot more accurately - is the fatal flaw in the now-moribund argument that going to one ounce (or less) would keep the big dogs from dominating handicap as they do now. They would just win by a larger margin, since they have demonstrated the skill to point more accurately than the rest of us and that's just what smaller shot-loads differentially reward.

    Neil
     
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