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Singles vs. Hanicap

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by FNG, Sep 2, 2009.

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  1. FNG

    FNG Member

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    I've been shooting singles scores in the mid 90s, (which is pretty good for me) but really struggling with short yardage handicap. My gun fits me well and shoots approximately 70/30. Depending on what the wind is doing, I hold lower for handicap; either on the leading edge of the house or one barrel width over the leading edge. Here is my question: Should the move to the target, target/barrel relationship, and shot timing be the same for handicap as for singles ? When I miss a hanicap target I have no idea where I'm missing. I seem to have more problems with the straight aways and shallow angles. I'm trying to find a balance between being too deliberate (riding the target), and shooting too quickly. Any suggestions/advice would be appreciated.
     
  2. Trap2

    Trap2 Well-Known Member

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    FNG... Shoot your short yardage targets the same way you do the 16yd. targets. Your hold point, leads, etc. should all be the same until you reach the 24-25yd. line or so. When you are short yardage in handicap, your yardage is just a place to stand, nothing more. Don't spend too much time trying to out think yourself, or the targets. Just relax, shoot them the same as the 16's and enjoy the short yardage handicap while you still can.... Just my experience.... Dan Thome (Trap2)
     
  3. Jawhawker

    Jawhawker TS Member

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    First, by short yardage handicap, what yardage is that specifically?
     
  4. FNG

    FNG Member

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    Specifically, I'm at 21 yds. I also noticed that my fat finger missed the "d" in my original post. Thanks for the responses.
     
  5. grnberetcj

    grnberetcj Active Member

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    For me (as in me only) I have found that shooting at the shorter yardages (23 and down) the same way I shoot singles works. From the 24 and back, I use a lower hold point. Again, for me the longest distance between me and the target is the 6 inches between my ears.

    Curt (26.5 currently)
     
  6. gdbabin

    gdbabin TS Member

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    FNG,


    First I like your handle if it stands for what I think it does... we used the term in the Navy for F'ing new guys.


    I suffer from the same hcp issue as you. I tell myself that there's no difference, but for me there is somehow.

    I had made it back to the 22 last year, but have since taken reductions to the 20--yuck. I finished the year with a 93.9 16s and 86.22 hcp--yuck again.


    Toward the end of the year I raised my comb 3/16s on Pheasant Masters advice and subsequently did much better in singles and hcps. Mid to high 90s 16s including my first ever 100, and low to mid 90s in hcp.


    Raising the comb helped, I'm sure. Working on my mental game also helped.


    I believe no significant changes are required between the two events if one shoots from short yardage. That being said however; you and I, and I suspect many more do experience poorer scores in hcp for some reason.


    Mental causes, I'm sure. Flaws in fundamentals likely. Shooting caps later in the day after lunch on a hot summer day may factor in as well.


    I'm convinced fundamentals, mental focus and lots of targets will produce results.


    Good luck!


    Guy Babin
     
  7. FNG

    FNG Member

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    Mr. Babin: Thanks; yes that's what it stands for and the Navy is where it came from ! I had my comb a bit higher but lowered it when I was told I was shooting over the targets and in fact the biggest pieces of the broken targets were going down, indicating high hits. I also use the same gun for doubles and I didn't want a high shooting gun for the second doubles bird. I'll try to get it in my head to shoot handicap the same as singles. Thanks for the tips.
     
  8. gdbabin

    gdbabin TS Member

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    No mister Babin required here my friend.



    Obviously no expert, but I suspect you're lifting your head. That’s MY biggest area of concentration.


    There’s a place I get into sometimes, more often as I shoot more, when I know, without a doubt, that the target will smoke. It's a difficult thing to articulate.


    The closest thing I can equate it to is the time as a very young boy when I found the "trick" to riding my bike without training wheels; and when I found “my seat” riding horses. Before the eureka moments both, I thought consciously too much and didn't have the subconscious imprinting. Let’s face it, who actually thinks consciously about how to ride a bike? It happens because somewhere in out pea brain our muscles have made peace with the technicalities of the contraption.


    Check into Lanny Bassham's books, an Olympic gold medalist rifle shooter. "With Winning in Mind" and "Freedom Flight".


    You will succeed… because you are smart enough to ask the questions.


    Guy, OCNCAL


    Old Crusty Navy Chief At Large
     
  9. Barry C. Roach

    Barry C. Roach Well-Known Member

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    Don't shoot them any different than you do the 16's. Don't get too hung up on distance until the 24 or 25.
     
  10. Dbl Auto

    Dbl Auto Active Member

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    My Dad is helping to coach my Nephew's trap team. Some of the kids get nervous when they start to move back off of the 16. They start to think and aim instead of just pointing at the target. Dad started having them shoot walking internationals from the 17 back to the 25 yard line. The movement seems to help them take one shot at a time and experience that you should shoot the same from the 16 back to about the 23-24 yard line. We shot one tonight and it is good practice.

    Doug Allison
     
  11. Jawhawker

    Jawhawker TS Member

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    FNG, its hard to help one over the internet but one thing that alarmed me with your recent post was this "I had my comb a bit higher but lowered it when I was told I was shooting over the targets and in fact the biggest pieces of the broken targets were going down, indicating high hits ". Who told you this" What is his level of experience with ability to disclose such info? Not trying to be an a!! but local gun club talents often offer to much advise from which they should reframe! Exactly how much have you lowered the comb? You realize that you can always lower the comb for specifically shooting doubles?

    There can be a host of issues that helping you specifically would require viewing of your shooting. Seek out one local individual with good experience and which can translate meaning well and work and listen to him only. If your a new or reasonably new shooter, this is a crtical stage in your development and listening and being advised by the wrong people can take many thousands of targets to correct improper training. If you can afford it, take a clinic by a professional teacher (and not just someone charging for working with you as I have learned is going on in many areas at various gun clubs). For the cost of a clinic in comparison to over all cost of shooting, its a reasonable and positive investment.
     
  12. BIGDON

    BIGDON Well-Known Member

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    The pheasant man gave you good advice. But in the mean time take your gun to the patterning board and find out where it is truly shooting. Now take that info and translate it to where you are holding on the target. Become one with your gun meaning you know exactlty where it is going to shoot if you do the same gun mount, the same stance, the same hold on the target, everything the same every time.

    We miss because we don't do the same things every time.

    Don
     
  13. Ahab

    Ahab Well-Known Member

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    21 yards is nothing but long singles! Shoot them like 16 yds.

    If you are riding the target, you are aiming! Mount the gun, look for the bird and shoot it....Don't look at the beads! Also keep your head down on the stock....no peekingat the bird to see if you broke it....scorer will yell "Lost!" if it was missd.

    If your gun fits properly....it will hit what you are looking at!
     
  14. Shooter R

    Shooter R Active Member

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    If you can't tell why you are missing at hcp., I would like to ask: what type of shell are you shooting? Many short yarders believe a Winchester Super Hcp. (1250+ fps) equivilant is required.

    A nice soft 2 3/4 dram, 1 to 1 1/8 oz. load will do fine and let you stay in the gun and keep your eyes open when you pull the trigger.

    Considering that you have your gun adjusted for right to left POI, and about 70/30 high, the next thing I would suggest is to pick ONE post, either post 2,3, or 4 and shoot several rounds of 25 from THAT POST ONLY.

    Another thing to try while doing the above exersize is to not put a shell in the gun. Call for your target, FOCUS on the front edge as if that's the only thing in the world, THEN make your move to it (with your head on the stock), and be aware of what happens when you pull the trigger. It may or may not surprise you. If you squint your eyes, and pull back a little you have your answer.
     
  15. ebsurveyor

    ebsurveyor Member

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    Someone asked me this thirty years ago: If you move from 16 yards to 17 yards should you change anything? Correct answer is no. If you move from 17 yards to 18 yards should you change anything? Correct answer is no. Continue this line of questions until you are at 27 and the correct answer is always NO! Point is DON'T CHANGE ANYTHING BETWEEN 16 & 'CAPS"! You need a full choke for trap shooting, BTW.
     
  16. zzt

    zzt Well-Known Member

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    FNG, I think Pheasantmaster's second post is good general advice. That being said, I see a difference between 16 and 21 yard shooting.

    I had two compounding problems until I accidentally it out. The problems were lowering my hold point for caps, and POI.

    Like you, I was missing a lot more straights than angles. When I lowered my POI, I began missing more angles. Here is why (for me). When I hold lower, I necessarily swing the gun faster to get to the target. This builds in lead; a surprising amount. When I miss a straight, it is almost always by shooting over.

    When I lowered my POI to try to compensate, I messed up my angles. My muscle memory/subconscious was set for a certain POI and changing it ruined my automatic targeting. When I put the POI back to where it had been, angles returned to normal. When I started to hold higher on 2 and 4 than on 1 and 5, and higher yet on 3, my shooting over straights diminished.

    If I want to make the same move on target (or substantially similar) for caps as I do for singles, I have to raise POI. If I keep the same POI, I hit them well at 21, but I now know it is with the top of the core of the pattern. At 22 a lot of the breaks are chippy. At 23 many are chippy. At 24 I'm dropping birds and the ones I hit are with the fringe. Adding 1/8" of spacers under the comb cures that problem at 23 and 24. 3/16" cures it at 25, and presumably 26.

    The reason I know this is because I have been practicing at various yardages. I have been punched back a yard at 4 of the last 6 summer league shoots. So I have had the opportunity to "experience" the effects of increasing yardages in a quite short time frame. Some of this I knew before, but had forgotten. It wasn't until I missed 5 out of the first 25 at 24 yards that it all gelled in my mind. I can now shoot even long range caps "just like singles", if I do the following.

    Hold low enough so you pick up the bird quickly, but high enough to avoid the "streak". That's a little lower than singles for 20-21, a touch lower yet for 22-23, and a touch lower yet for 24-25. That increasingly lower hold increases the speed of my swing and builds in lead. Increasing the POI lets me center targets.

    Hope this helps.
     
  17. Frank C

    Frank C Well-Known Member

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    in the short term...Set the Trap on straightaway and shoot 15 (or so), have someone watch your hits, then raise or lower your comb and repeat, see what helps you result in more smoke, repeat at Hcap yardage....as a start!
     
  18. wolfram

    wolfram Well-Known Member

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    I'm reading between the lines of your first post FNG and speculating a bit here but it seems like you are overly concearned about looking at your barrel. What you really want to look at is the target. I really didn't understand just what that meant until I got some professional instruction and that would be your best bet as well.

    In the mean time try this technique, hold your gun very low on the trap house like a foot below the close roof line and focus your attention on seeing the bird emerge from the house when you call it. Keep your eyes locked on that target and swing your gun along the target path firing when you have a good target picture. Avoid the temptation to use your bead(s) for reference during this process and if necessary black them out or remove them.

    You may very well have other issues like POI to deal with but those type of things can be resolved pretty easily once you have the fundamentals down.
     
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