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sight plane?

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by slayer, Feb 13, 2010.

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  1. slayer

    slayer Well-Known Member

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    Just how important is it to get a lengthy sight plane? i have seen on shooting dvds that getting a very long sight plane is important to getting consistantly high scores. Any thoughts on just how long is too long? If you consider that the sight plane on most auto and pumps are considerably longer than anything else, why wouldn't everyone shoot those?
     
  2. short shucker

    short shucker TS Member

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    I guess it depends on whether you are looking at the beads or the target. I look at the target and the barrel follows along. It wouldn't make any difference about the sighting plane.

    Barrel length has more to do weight/balance and resale for most.

    ss
     
  3. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Not important in terms of sighting plane. Look down a gun and tell me if the barrel is 28 or 34 inches.

    It's not even important in pistols, where it should have the biggest effect. See "Experiments of a Handgunner" by Roper, a wonderful bedside book.

    Neil
     
  4. KEYBEAR

    KEYBEAR Active Member

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    If you are thinking about sight plane your not looking at the target . We are told time and again it,s bad to see (look) at the bead and I agree .

    Forget Sight Plane start seeing the target only .
     
  5. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

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    Increasing the length of the sight plane has been proven to increase accuracy. Just take a look at the rifles used in the smallbore events at the olympics. HMB
     
  6. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    I just watched the women's biathalon, Howard, and the barrels looked quite short to me.

    When I sit down at the bench to test the POI of a barrel, I'm trying to get a round bead to about the same relationship with an aim-point as last time with no help from a fixed rear sight, just a familiar feel on my cheek. It's no easier or harder with 30-inch O/U barrels as with 34-inch single barrels. Why would it be?

    Neil
     
  7. KEYBEAR

    KEYBEAR Active Member

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    Are we talking about A Rifle or Shotgun . If your going to hit the target first you need to be looking at it .
     
  8. Smok'n Joe

    Smok'n Joe Active Member

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    "If you consider that the sight plane on most auto and pumps are considerably longer than anything else, why wouldn't everyone shoot those? "

    Coyote...you answered your own question...The Model-12s, 1100s and 870s are terrific target guns that have survived virtually unchanged for longer than we've been alive. There's a reason why so many people either still shoot them or have an old favorite that they use for a back up.

    A 34" barrel on a dedicated trap gun does not necessarily pattern any better or any different than a 30" pump or semi-auto...but the added length of the barrel provides for the same length of sighting plane you have on your pumper.
    If it aint broke...don't fix it.

    Smok'n Joe
     
  9. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    85TTR, I'm surprised that anyone was favorably impressed by the Alan Rhone article in Volume 5 of Trapshooting USA, pages 52 to 54, you cite (which, by the way, doesn't cover sighting plane, does it?)

    1. His definition of line-of-sight is surely different from what I think most people think of.

    "To begin, we need to understand the difference between Line-of-Sight and Point-of-Impact. LOS is simply a straight line drawn between your eye and the target. That's it. No more no less. POI is where the centre of the shot pattern hits compared to what you see when you look along the rib. . . ." (page 52)

    To have the LOS removed from any relationship to the rib, as is done here, seems unusual to me.

    2. He spends most of his time on "percent high" mumbo-jumbo when he could have (should have) done it in inches and

    3. When he does try inches he comes up with some math I can't make heads or tails of and how easy should that be? Is a 120%-high pattern really 18 inches above the aim point?

    Neil
     
  10. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

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    18 inches is correct. Pattern diameter is 30 inches. 15 inches below point of aim and 15 iches above poa equals a 50/50 poi. 100/0 poi would be up 15 inches and 120 percent up would equal 18 inches. HMB
     
  11. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Well, Alan got it another way, but I have to ask how that works, Howard.

    I would never use the system, of course, - just this example proves how useless it is - but people who do seem often have said something along these lines (when they can explain it all.)

    " 50/50 is at point zero, the aiming point, and 100/0 is fifteen inches above that. Therefore fifteen inches is 50% (the move from 50% to 100%). If 15 inches is 50% ....Repeating: 50%=15 inches....then, dividing both sides of the equation by 5, 10% is three inches."

    By addition, (Adding the 100% of 15 inches and the 10% of three inches.) 18 inches high is 110%, isn't it?

    By the way, do you agree with Alan that the LOS is the line between the eye and the target (unrelated to the gun.)?

    Neil
     
  12. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    I did, Gary, but since I had my third arm surgically removed - the one I pulled the bolt back with while the other two were

    1. holding the gun

    2. Catching the shell -

    . .. I've assumed I can't shoot a Space Gun anymore.

    Neil
     
  13. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Great confusion exists between the terms shooting 100% high and moving the pattern up 100%. They are very different. If we start with a 30 inch pattern at 50% below the point of aim and 50% above the point of aim (gun shoots 50/50), and we move the pattern up 15 inches, the gun would then shoot 100% high. All of the pattern would be above the point of aim. The gun is already shooting 50% high so another 50% would equal 100%. But if we want to move the pattern up 100%, that would require moving the pattern 30 inches. We simply changed the reference points from the point of aim to the entire pattern.

    I wish everyone would follow Neil's suggestion that we quit using % high or low and just go to inches above or below the point of aim.

    Pat Ireland
     
  14. JerryP

    JerryP Active Member

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    Pat, I agree that inch designation is better, but the gun industy seems to use the percent designation instead. People just need to understand that 3" is 10%.
     
  15. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    I'm sorry, Jerry I just can't buy that. That would make 120% twenty-one inches high, when the correct answer is eighteen inches high and I read that in a magazine! Here's why:

    <a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank">[​IMG]</a>

    <a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank">[​IMG]</a>

    I hope this has cleared things up for you, Jerry. No charge,

    Neil
     
  16. KEYBEAR

    KEYBEAR Active Member

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    How did we get from Length of sight Plane to this ??

    It,s never been hard to see that a gun that shoots 50/50 is a flat shooter . Just as easy to see a gun said to be a 100% shoot has no shot below the aim point . Just as a gun that shoots 80/20 has 80% above and 20 below aim point ??
     
  17. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    I hope no one agrees with Alan's math. Why would you add 20% to the pattern diameter? What's he doing?

    I also wonder if anyone agrees with his idea of line Line-of-sight.

    Neil
     
  18. Dr.Longshot

    Dr.Longshot Banned Banned

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    HMB You have it correct in your response, someday maybe a light will come on and it will come to Neil, He is intellectually smart but when it comes to common sense on this issue he is in left field.

    He doesn't understand lowering the front beat on an adjustable rib raises the POI.

    I gave up on it with him, But you have it correct 120% is 18 inches high, and that is the way AIM or Silver Seitz to anyone else explains it. The Seitz 2 1/2
    high shooting rib is 120% high shooter or 18"inches, and I believe them.

    Neils graphs and his math does not add up to yours and mine and Seitz.

    Now this is with a straight bored Bbl not one that is bent up or down as he may throw into his extrapolation to disprove anyone else.


    Gary Bryant
    Dr.longshot
     
  19. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Gary, sometimes your failure to tell the truth amazes even me, as familiar I am with your failings. For example, you wrote above:

    "He (Neil) doesn't understand lowering the front beat on an adjustable rib raises the POI."

    What you must be referring to is the linked thread above, and this exchange:

    "Subject: Rib Height Mathematicians

    From: Dr.Longshot

    Date: Sun, Jan 10, 2010 - 10:52 AM ET

    The pellet drop does not even enter the calculation if you pattern your gun and you want to raise the POI 4 inches you raise the rib in the rear .125, you are still shooting the same shell, same shot size, and the same distance. POI will raise accordingly, plain and simple there are no other variables.

    Gary Bryant Dr.longshot

    Subject: Rib Height Mathematicians

    From: Neil Winston

    Date: Sun, Jan 10, 2010 - 12:58 PM ET

    Gary, if you raise the rib at the rear - and that's all you do - nothing about the POI will change.

    Neil"

    As you see, this is completely different from your claim above. We are talking about the _rear of the rib_, not the front sight. This could not be more clear, nor could you have fairly made this mistake. It's just your dishonesty showing up again, and I think many others are getting as sick of it as I am.

    I don't get your math and the way it makes 120% high 18 inches high, or HMB's or Alan's for that matter. Go through it step by step for us, OK? I'm sure the Silver Seitz people are are as anxious to get their explanation out as much as I am to hear and understand it. I do think you are doing the right thing by giving Silver Seitz credit, though; you are often not careful enough about that.

    Neil
     
  20. whiz white

    whiz white Strong Supporter of Trapshooting Banned

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    Heck: Here I was comtemplating seeing a plane.

    Sight plain ??
     
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