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Show me your papers!!!

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by ctreay, May 2, 2010.

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  1. ctreay

    ctreay Member

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    I just wonder how many of the folks that are so against a national ID card had one on thier person while serving in the military. I carried one for 10 years and see no big deal about it.

    ctreay Navy Seabees.
     
  2. PerazziBigBore

    PerazziBigBore TS Member

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    Oh.. your rights were so deeply violated for soooooooo many years.. How did you ever recover???? BTW.. Thanks for serving our country.. Mike
     
  3. smoking357

    smoking357 TS Member

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    I certainly hope we're not defining the liberties of a free people by the practices of one of the least free organizations on Earth.

    This is the great problem with such a large military. So many military members return to society and pollute freedom with the practices of martial law. Whatever occurs in the military has no place in a free society.

    We would all have been better served if you would have questioned the military's omnipresent surveillance, instead of lamenting the civilian lack of same.
     
  4. Jollytrapshooter

    Jollytrapshooter Member

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    Doesn't this whole "show me your papers" thing ring a bell with anyone else? Ever seen movies about the Nazi occupation of Europe...sometime around the 1940's or so? What about the quote "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it"?

    I realize this is about illegal immigrants, but legal citizens will be affected by it as well. How is it any different from the government banning guns? They're trying to stop the illegal activities, but normal law abiding citizens would be affected by the law too.

    Or maybe I'm alone...

    Josh
     
  5. Tom Ruble

    Tom Ruble TS Member

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    Jollytrapshooter, I believe I understand and I respect your viewpoint. I also feel, as I'm sure you probably do, that a problem exists. What is your solution? Break 'em all! Tom Ruble
     
  6. skeet_man

    skeet_man Well-Known Member

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    FYI, HB 2162, which was a revision/clarification to SB1070, states the following:

    HB 2162 bars race from being considered when deciding whether to inquire about a person's status, "except to the extent permitted by the United States or Arizona Constitution."

    The bill also clarifies that law-enforcement officers shall inquire about the immigration status only of those they "stop, detain or arrest." The earlier bill simply said "contact." The change is designed to allay fears that officers would have to examine the papers of anyone they spoke to, including crime victims and witnesses.

    Source: http://www.azcentral.com/news/election/azelections/articles/2010/04/30/20100430arizona-immigration-law-governor-signs-revised-bill.html#ixzz0mmxIi7kd
     
  7. GW22

    GW22 Active Member

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    Jolly:

    You've just fallen victim to the leftists' cunning tactics. Associating a simple I.D., just like you and I would have to produce when pulled over at a traffic stop, with Nazi persecution and racism is a bunch of BS. This has nothing whatsoever to do with racism or hassling legitimate citizens. No other developed country on earth stands by and mindlessly lets themselves be over-run by illigal immigrants.

    Nobody should be surprised, however, that a President who himself is unable or unwilling to produce a legitimate original birth certificate, would have a major problem with anyone having to prove citizenship.

    -Gary
     
  8. smoking357

    smoking357 TS Member

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    MiShot:

    The greatest problem we face is this: the size of government; the power of government; that so many Americans respect the government, governmental institutions, governmental employees and nonsensical governmental "authority;" and that the government has unfettered intrusion into our lives.

    Illegal immigration is a far, far smaller problem than Americans' widespread belief and insistence that they and we are to give respect to the agents of the state.

    Adding to the power of the state is the greatest sin and error we can commit. Freedom advocates never look to the government as the solution to any problem, unless it is to demand that the government annihilate itself.
     
  9. smoking357

    smoking357 TS Member

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    Skeet man:

    Those "protections" are a mirage. Have you ever tried to win a Motion to Suppress hearing? The court almost always sides with the cop and very rarely rules to exclude the evidence taken from a bad stop as the fruit of the poisonous tree. Indeed, when attorneys try to help the defendant, they are ridiculed by the pro-cop conservative right. Are you now suggesting that conservatives are regaling the defense bar as the champions of Liberty? Hardly. This law scares people who've played the game.

    The cops do what they want, and the prosecutors and judges give it official blessing.

    In the real world, those restrictions are illusory, and this law is a true and powerful "papers, please!" enabling act on American soil.
     
  10. R.Kipling

    R.Kipling Well-Known Member

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    Personally, I don't see this as any more an intrusion than a drivers license. If it takes a bit of inconvenience and a national ID to vote and prevent the billions of dollars and security lost to illegals now, then I'll suffer it.

    Have you filled out your 2010 Census? Pretty intrusive, I think. Besides, a national ID card would really piss off the Left!

    Kip
     
  11. bigbore613

    bigbore613 Active Member

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    Any questions ?
     
  12. Brian in Oregon

    Brian in Oregon Well-Known Member

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    So do you people supporting a national ID card also support a FOID card?
     
  13. mcneeley5

    mcneeley5 Member

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    I live on the AZ Mexican border, about 6 miles from the line. We have been stopped by border patrol on all northbound roads for years. Anyone that is around these parts can reconize an illegal at a glance. When I drive through PX and see 30 or 40 illegals on a corner waiting for day work no "profile" is needed. Here on the southern front we are pleased our guv has the cajones to stand tough!!
     
  14. Dr.Longshot

    Dr.Longshot Banned Banned

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    I did not see that the 2010 cennsus was so intrusive, I am a census taker this year and the Census started yesterday.

    It did not ask if you were a citizen or not, one thing a Mexican, or hispanics are white.

    If you are a Phillipino, Thai, Etc. you declared it, even further are you of mid-eastern, or western decent,

    Only if you lived at the address as listed on April 1st 2010.

    The census is mainly to establish population, and representatives for your state, and size of voting wards.

    \The census has been going on since the 1800s.

    All info is private for 72 years.

    I would like to see all states pass legislation like Arizona.


    Gary Bryant
    Dr.longshot
     
  15. smoking357

    smoking357 TS Member

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    Brian:

    These stand-and-identify conservatives are a very strong strain of leftist, but they refuse to realize it.
     
  16. trapperwads

    trapperwads Well-Known Member

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    At 67 years old, when I buy a case of beer at the supermarket I have to show i.d. as proof of age, so whats the big deal. Cops are not stupid..they know who they suspect of being illegal and won't waste time if they don't think they are right. And..by some chance if a legal is asked..they know the police are doing it to protect them! Anyone who objects is just bent on pushing their mentally challenged liberal agenda. ed nichols
     
  17. omgb

    omgb Well-Known Member

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    I am strongly opposed to a national identification card. I am certain it is a slippery slope that paves the way for a one-world government and the Antichrist. Many may mock me for this seemingly unenlightened view but I beg to differ. I trust the Bible on this one and national ID cards are a step closer to registration numbers that will control individual commerce. This will make life apart from strict state obedience impossible. The national health system is already creating a national data base with our entire life's record at the reach of federal and local authorities. As the state reaches farther and farther into our private lives, less and less will be private and more and more our behavior will be monitored and controlled.

    The recent move to control salt and sugar levels in food follows the outlawing or trans fats in restaurants in NY and LA. Smoking bans even in outside areas are being followed by an outright ban in conjoined housing units such as apartments and condos. How much more do we wish to give up?

    Nope, for me, a national ID is indeed, just like it was in the military....very little freedom and few free choices. I enjoyed my military life and willingly surrendered many of my rights and privileges in the name of service. But, and this is a huge but, I did so expecting that I was preserving those rights for those not in uniform. I would not have done so to create or protect a super state than mandates private citizens behavior.

    The illegal issue is real. Race has not a damn thing to do with it....that's a red herring designed to obfuscate from the real issue, nationalism. This is the US, not the European Common Wealth. Come here legally or get tossed out. We have no need of a peasant class. Checking the ID of those stopped for traffic violations and then running them for citizen status is legitimate and warranted.

    That's my $.02....Reece Talley AKA OMGB
     
  18. smoking357

    smoking357 TS Member

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    In a truly free state, illegal immigration is no problem, at all. Indeed, unfettered immigration is supported by free-market economic theory. Wage payers have full liberty to seek out the wage earners they want. Immigration is frequently opposed by those seeking to exact an economic rent, such as allowing natives enjoy a wage higher than the free market would pay, and it is frequently opposed by those trying to ensure a certain national culture or attitude predominates. The latter will never be accomplished in the Southwest.

    Illegals come here often to enjoy the benefits of government programs. The programs were, obviously, created by the government, and we are now asking the government to invoke even more governmental power to cure some of the problems created by their prior action. Do we not see that this is folly compounded on folly?

    Government is the problem, people, not the answer. Worse, we're now empowering the most terrifying and dishonest government employees to cure the problem created by another part of the government. This leads nowhere good.

    Change birthright citizenship to extend only to children born of citizens, and drop the social programs, particularly for illegal aliens. If we do this, our honest objection to illegal immigration will disappear, and we won't have given the police the easiest excuse to thrown any one of us in jail until our papers check out.

    "It was dark. He looked foreign to me, and he talked with an accent." It's an easy matter for a cop to lie and say he mistook an East Coast accent or big-city rate of speech for something foreign. Heck, a hot sorority girl with a nice tan might make a very attractive target for arrest and a bodily inspection.

    Whatever the problem, invoking police involvement always makes it worse.
     
  19. Leo

    Leo Well-Known Member

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    While we are so busy worried about the rights of criminals, lets look at some more realistic factors. Cops are more than busy enough. Legitimate citizens have a real drivers license, and drive a car with proper registration, with an address linked to a real place where the people there pay real taxes. We are also required to show proof of proper insurance. When you are pulled over for a violation, or even a random safety inspection, all your paperwork is in order and you go on your way. This has been the same for my 35 years of enjoying the privilege (not a right) to share the public streets. If you are an illegal, and you have no proof that you are a responsible citizen, you are either an illegal criminal or are totally irresponsible. Either way, I really do not care if you are offended by me or this country. IF you do not like it......GO HOME! I am tired of those who contibute nothing complaining they do not like the way the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA operates.
     
  20. Auctioneer

    Auctioneer Well-Known Member

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    It just reminds me of China and the USSR. PAPERS CONRADE. FASTER FASTER I WANT TO SEE YOUR PAPERS.
     
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