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Should the squad leader call a lost bird

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by hrosik123, Sep 7, 2009.

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  1. hrosik123

    hrosik123 Member

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    At a recent there was some bad scoring> Many targets were counted eventhough they were obvious misses> What is proper protocol
     
  2. 320090T

    320090T Well-Known Member

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    As a squad leader I would, and have, walk back to the chair and talk with the scorer about lost targets.
     
  3. recurvyarcher

    recurvyarcher Well-Known Member

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    Yes, the squad leader should ask if anyone else saw a chip from that bird, IMO. But the shooter should do the same. Keep in mind that just because you didn't see a chip that does not mean that someone else from a different angle did not see one.
     
  4. rick979

    rick979 Active Member

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    Anyone on the squad can question the scorer about a call or missed call including the shooter that missed. The responsibility does not fall on the squad leader only.
     
  5. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    When other members of the squad see a small chip from a target the scorers has called lost, they should politely just say--dead bird. This is common. We should do the same thing when a scorer does not say lost when a shooter misses a bird. It gets complicated, but possible, when the scorer does not call lost loud enough for the shooters to hear. Then, when moving to the next post, if the scorer gives me a 5 and I know I missed a target, I and others in my squad will question the scorer.

    Pat Ireland
     
  6. OldGoat

    OldGoat Well-Known Member

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    The "squad leader" in many cases is simply someone who signed up to shoot and position #1 was the only one left open. He/she has no official capacity. Regards, Ed
     
  7. hrosik123

    hrosik123 Member

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    How do you keep it fair when there is money and titles on the line
     
  8. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    OldGoat

    "The "squad leader" in many cases is simply someone who signed up to shoot and position #1 was the only one left open. He/she has no official capacity."

    You sir need to read in the rulebook Section IV sub-section G paragraph 5 the official capacity may not be large but there is a responsibility in that position and it is one that needs to be met.

    Bob Lawless
     
  9. T H Wallace

    T H Wallace Member

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    I am usually at Post 1, because I choose to, the Squad leader controls the tempo of the squad.

    I do not call targets, unless it is obvious. I do not question targets that are called dead, when they are obviously lost to me, why?..the scorekeeper/referee has the ultimate say so. You can call a dead bird, when you see a chip, but it does not mean the score keeper has to change what was written down on the score sheet.

    I am sure Mr.Ireland can correct me if I am wrong.

    There is no rule defined about calling a lost target on one that the score keeper calls dead.

    but here is the new rule:

    Section VII, A,1, 2, 10, 11, 12 and 13 says:

    1....The referee/scorer's decision on whether a target is lost or lost is final....

    2. The referee/scorer shall keep an accurate record of each score of each contestant. If he/she rules “DEAD” or “LOST,” the referee/scorer shall promptly mark / or X for “DEAD” and 0 for “LOST” on the score sheet. Any target scored other than clearly with /, X or 0, or which appears to be scored, with both an X and 0, shall be “LOST”, unless the word “DEAD” is clearly printed beside it. The scores of the competition shall be official and govern all awards and records of the competition. . . .

    10. The official score must be kept on the score sheet in plain view of the contestant. If contestant’s view of the score sheet is obstructed for any reason, he/she may refuse to shoot until he/she has been provided an unobstructed view of the score sheet.

    11. It is an error if the referee/scorer fails to properly mark the results of any shot in the section of the score sheet where the results should be recorded. In such cases it is the duty of that contestant to have any error corrected before he/she has fired the first shot at the next post or in the case of his/her last post before leaving the trap. If the shooter fails to have the score corrected, the recorded score(s) shall remain unchanged and no valid protest will be entertained.

    12. Every contestant in a squad shall be permitted to examine his/her score before the sheet is sent to the bulletin board or to the cashier’s office. The score sheet should be checked, confirmed, and initialed by the Squad Leader. The Squad Leader is encouraged to verify that any targets changed during a sub event are correctly noted as either dead or lost. After the completion of the last sub-event the score sheet will be handled as directed by shoot management.

    13. Errors in the recorded details of the official score can only be corrected in strict accordance with the aforementioned Rules, but an error made in the totaling or compilation of targets shall be corrected whenever the error is discovered. Shoot management must correct scores recorded in error by field personnel as a result of misapplication of the Rules.

    so the bottom line is: YOU are responsible to make sure your score is correct. Not the squadleader.
     
  10. WesleyB

    WesleyB Well-Known Member

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    Honor, Its like a reputation.
     
  11. Jawhawker

    Jawhawker TS Member

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    I also have predominately been a squad leader for 35 years and yes I will, either way. But anyone on that squad including the shooter themselves should question if unsure. The squads that I typically shoot with have absolutely no problem with immediately having a discussion on a target that was called dead and was not regardless of scorekeepers response. It works the other way as is common. A shooter only earns the target they truly break. We have to police ourselves as we are the ones, the shooters who have to police our own inorder to make sure it stays legit. Yes the scorekeepers are paid to do this but for a variety of reasons, angle, background, visibility, and most importantly, lack of attention can prohibit correct response.
     
  12. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    T H Wallace I agree with most of what you say however you said.

    "You can call a dead bird, when you see a chip, but it does not mean the score keeper has to change what was written down on the score sheet."

    I agree with this also but again I will say. That it also says.

    "The score sheet should be checked, confirmed, and initialed by the Squad Leader."

    If I don't agree with the scorer as he was informed by other squad members/member and refused to agree. I will not sign the sheet as I don't agree. I will however make a notation that target # for shooter # as far as I am concerned is incorrect.

    It may not do any good but at least the shooters on the squad know I am not in favor of cheating the shooters out of any targets.

    As far as I am concerned if you don't feel that this is your responsibility as squad leader then don't take the position. I do not agree that the squad leader shouldn't

    "I do not question targets that are called dead, when they are obviously lost to me"

    I believe that by including # 12 that it gives the squad leader options he should exercise. Whether the out come is in the shooters favor or not to say nothing to me means the squad leader doesn't care what happens to me or the sport.

    Bob Lawless
     
  13. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    Our game has to work as described so well by Martin, no cheating the system should be tolerated! This thing may boil down to who has the better look at a small piece from a different angle and should remain so. We must rely on our ability to see what seems invisible to some as fact and call them like we see them. Instant replay from inside the traphouse camera could make the correct call every time? Some on squads never even look at others targets, how could they be involved in making important decisions? They can't, they saw nothing.

    T.H. Wallace quoted the rule as it is, the scorekeepers decision stands and is final. Hap
     
  14. OldGoat

    OldGoat Well-Known Member

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    Mr. Lawless, your point is well-taken...I have learned something new and both "shootlow" and I have had the impression that the "squad leader" has no official capacity and, apparently, the rules say otherwise. So, I guess my question is: "what/who defines who the squad leader is?" Is it always the shooter on Post #1? Could it be a shooter on some other Post? What if the shooter on post #1 or no one on the squad wants the responsibility of being "squad leader"?...and be required to sign the score sheet? Many times, I have been on squads when the scorekeeper asks who, if anybody, will sign the score sheet...and the shooter on Post #1 ignores the request and heads for the next field. This is getting complicated. Best Regards, Ed
     
  15. Texshooter

    Texshooter Member

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    Is it just me, or is Martin making more sense lately? AJ
     
  16. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    Ed if you need that information then my suggestion would to read the whole sub section G as all that information is also there.

    As far as refusing to sigh is concerned and walking away without the score sheet(which is also squad leaders duty)could get that person in hot water with the rest of the squad. If the sheet is lost what will be the out come??? who will be held responsible when the decision about the missing sheet is made?

    The position is more involved than everyone seems to think. Yet in my experience the only time there is ever a problem. When the person the responsibility fall to when there is no shooter #1.

    It isn't a difficult job just complicated by those that don't want it. You know like a kid in a candy store that doesn't get his way.

    Bob Lawless
     
  17. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    AJ, he's in a plumbing up mode? :) Hap
     
  18. Big Heap

    Big Heap TS Member

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    10. The official score must be kept on the score sheet in plain view of the contestant. If contestant’s view of the score sheet is obstructed for any reason, he/she may refuse to shoot until he/she has been provided an unobstructed view of the score sheet.

    The most often violated rule in the game.

    This depicts the era when the rule was made, AKA: "The good old days".
     
  19. T H Wallace

    T H Wallace Member

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    The reason I do not question the scorekeepers call of a dead bird, when it appears obvious to me is, maybe I did not see a chip, or a piece that came off. the score keepers job is to do just that, and they are to have their undivided attention to the target as it comes out, yet. How many times have we corrected that missed piece? So who is to say I didn't miss it to. Think about how many times you saw a piece off your target, and it was called lost and no one else saw or called it? If I also remember correctly, you cannot call your own target.
    Now, if I (think)miss a target and they do not call lost, I will question the scorekeeper, if they say they saw a piece, so be it(an I do this at the station change).

    I do as the rule book states as far as being the squad leader. And, since I shoot with familiar people alot of the time, I do not watch their targets, reason for that, I need to stay within MY game..

    Honestly, until this year, I found it very difficult to shoot with my parents. I was more concerned about their score than my own, and my average reflected it.
    But I did shoot with them at the PA state shoot this year, and did, better, but I do not remember any of my mother or fathers targets.
     
  20. BigBruno

    BigBruno TS Member

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    If a fellow shooter sees a chip off of a bird called lost, most will speak up and call dead bird. Who's to say the score keeper didn't see the chip in which the fellow shooter thought was lost? I concur with Mr. Wallace in that it is the score keeper who has the undivided attention on each bird.
     
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