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Should it be Personal Protection or Police

Discussion in 'Politics, Elections & Legislation' started by timberfaller, May 18, 2013.

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  1. timberfaller

    timberfaller Well-Known Member

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    Protection, like we are always being told by liberals and the press or the criminal dad before congress, "who needs one of those"??

    Or like the idiot public servant in who told the rape victim that had she had a firearm, the rapist would have used it on her, based on the idiot public servant's data(false data)!!

    In case some here don't read the link, wasn't the law in NY changed to "only 7 round magazines?

    Hit the perk 7 times killing him, fired 8, one round into the head of the victim,killing her also, hummmm. Would she still be alive had he only been carrying 7 rounds???
     
  2. Brian in Oregon

    Brian in Oregon Well-Known Member

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    I've often wondered if current police training methods are resulting in resolving violent confrontations with "firepower" versus accuracy. I'm a dinosaur, because when I was in LE the revolver was the standard police firearm, not the semi-auto. The agency I worked for did not allow autos except for detectives and undercover, and even then it was the Walther PPK/S that was in use. Some neighboring agencies allowed autos only by their motorcycle officers. At the time the only autos they allowed were the S&W 39 or 59.

    I recall that what few shootings we had in those days, seldom were more than two or three rounds were fired. The .357 had a pretty good track record for one shot stops.

    After the "Wonder Nine" became popular, more rounds were being spent in police shootings. We had some notorious cases of the police emptying their Glocks at a fleeing suspect, failing to hit him, but striking several homes downrange. A suicidal woman was shot by two officers, who emptied their autos into her. We had a similar "collateral damage" incident where a young hostage - a boy - was killed by the police.

    Is there a solution? I think training that puts more emphasis on accuracy instead of firepower would be a start. Maybe it was a mistake to get rid of .357 revolvers.

    Interestingly, one study that was drummed into us during training was that the number of officers involved in physical confrontations increased when the officers were two or more officers at a scene instead of one officer. The single officer had no one to watch his back, so it was not in his best interest to escalate the situation. I wondered if a similar situation was at work with the number of cartridges in the firearm. If you needed more "firepower" in those days you grabbed the 870. The supervising sgt. had an HK93.

    Well, times change, and I'm a dinosaur. But I think there are some lessons to be learned from the past.
     
  3. shot410ga

    shot410ga Well-Known Member

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    Police are reporters. It's better to stand before twelve jurors than be carried by six friends.
     
  4. 548

    548 Guest

    This is a bad deal. That cop will struggle with this the rest of his life, if he is lucky enough to avoid the all to common guilt suicide.

    I don't know how close the cop was to the perp, but handguns are not hugely accurate beyond 15 yards. And at the point the perp pointed the gun at the cop, negotiations should and did end.
     
  5. Old Cowboy

    Old Cowboy Active Member

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    "...handguns are not hugely accurate beyond 15 yards." ....What a crock of bullshit!
     
  6. 635 G

    635 G Well-Known Member

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    In NYC a few months ago, two police officers fired thru a bunch of civilians at an alleged murderer, they hit several innocent bystanders. I'm fortunate that I live in state that allows me to carry, all by hand guns are laser equipped. I feel its about time all hand guns carried by LEO's should be laser equipped as well. Collateral injuries may be reduced.

    Phil Berkowitz
     
  7. 548

    548 Guest

    I'm talking about peace officer duty pistols, not your Buckmark 22 with the scope.

    Training has evolved. The days of standing static in front of a paper target are gone. 90% of police shootings using sidearms are within 10 feet of the perp. Training reflects this. We don't even train beyond 15 yards.
     
  8. broadway john

    broadway john Well-Known Member

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    If you don't train beyond 15 yards you shouldn't be shooting beyond 15 yards. And if you can't estimate range you shouldn't be shooting at all. Also if you can't empty the gun's mag in a 3 or 4 inch group at 15 yards you shouldn't even be allowed to carry a side arm.
     
  9. Catpower

    Catpower Molon Labe TS Supporters

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    What broadway Joe said
     
  10. Stl Flyn

    Stl Flyn Well-Known Member

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    Maybe that is why they bought all that ammunition! LOL
     
  11. jakeduke

    jakeduke Member

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    It is a terrible thing that has happened. How does a family deal with this?
     
  12. Brian in Oregon

    Brian in Oregon Well-Known Member

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    548, quote: <i>"I don't know how close the cop was to the perp, but handguns are not hugely accurate beyond 15 yards. And at the point the perp pointed the gun at the cop, negotiations should and did end."</i>

    From: Old Cowboy, rebuttal: <i>" "...handguns are not hugely accurate beyond 15 yards." ....What a crock of bullshit!"</i>

    548, quote: <i>"I'm talking about peace officer duty pistols, not your Buckmark 22 with the scope.

    Training has evolved. The days of standing static in front of a paper target are gone. 90% of police shootings using sidearms are within 10 feet of the perp. Training reflects this. We don't even train beyond 15 yards."</i>

    broadway john, rebuttal: <i>"If you don't train beyond 15 yards you shouldn't be shooting beyond 15 yards. And if you can't estimate range you shouldn't be shooting at all. Also if you can't empty the gun's mag in a 3 or 4 inch group at 15 yards you shouldn't even be allowed to carry a side arm."</i>

    What we're dealing with here, folks, is someone who is an uninformed anti-gunner who does not understand handguns and other firearms beyond his limited job requirements and, frankly, flawed training, who might shoot a little trap on the side since trap is politically correct amongst anti-gunners. Every time he opens his mouth on guns, the ignorance flows out.

    Handguns are not accurate beyond 15 yards, except maybe a scoped Buckmark. What a totally ignorant statement. This clearly shows a lack of experience with handguns other than limited 15 yard police training.

    It sounds like 548 has never heard of IHMSA http://www.ihmsa.org/ wherein handguns are shot at metallic targets out to 200 meters. For some of the levels of competition, ordinary handguns are used. Like from the S&W Model 17 K-22 up to the Model 29 .44 Mag.

    548 also sounds like he's never heard of Bullseye competition http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullseye_(shooting_competition) which is shot at 25 and 50 yards, or the ISSF international 25 meter Standard Pistol (82 feet) version.

    Myself, I've varmint hunted with iron sight handguns (revolvers and autos) ranging from .22 LR to .357. In particular, one of my best long range varmint handguns is my S&W Model 27 using .38 wadcutters. If 548 saw the size of the varmints being shot, he'd understand just how ignorant his statement is.

    My advice to 548 is to stop parroting anti-gun garbage and understand there is more to firearms than what you hear from your anti-gun cronies and friends. Get out into the real world or at least ask some questions and learn something.
     
  13. timberfaller

    timberfaller Well-Known Member

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    Wow I must be a bad dude!! I hit 9 times out of 10 clay pigeons at a 100 yds with all my pistols.

    And I consider myself to just be mediocre at best.

    25 yds is to easy and now boring.
     
  14. 548

    548 Guest

    Brian, I said "hugely accurate", not accurate. Your comparison with marksmen using rimfire pistols with little to no recoil engaging in shooting competitions is a little outside the scope of what I was talking about, wouldn't you say? Cops are a collection of different types of people, some are in to guns, some are not. But all train similarly. If you are going to compare a competition rimfire pistol shooter shooting at a static target with a cop shooting a 40 calibre pistol under duress and fear for his life, you are absolutely insane.

    Aprice, you have a keen sense of observation. What is your point? Am I supposed to be offended?
     
  15. Big Al 29

    Big Al 29 TS Member

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    I have 5 friends that are local cops and not a one of them can shoot for shit. They even admit it. They all say " I can't hit shit with a pistol but I am good with the shotgun."

    And these are the guys that are going to help me when some raving lunatic is in my house??

    I have one cop buddy that asks me how to shoot more accurately.

    I think their training SUCKS!!!!!

    They are good at writing tickets and harassing kids drinking beers in the park and talking tough at the HS football games. When its go time, they always arrive 5 minutes late or show up with a battalion. Wonder why??

    They are scared and know if they end up in a gun battle they are up shits crick.

    Now... our staties are pretty damned good. They qualify at my gun club and they all can shoot and have excellent form. they are getting good training. My local police must be trained with Youtube videos. Most don't even know what load they carry. i get... "I don't know... whatever they gave me".

    None of the 1911 shooters carry condition 1.
     
  16. Brian in Oregon

    Brian in Oregon Well-Known Member

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    548, quote: <i>"Brian, I said "hugely accurate", not accurate. Your comparison with marksmen using rimfire pistols with little to no recoil engaging in shooting competitions is a little outside the scope of what I was talking about, wouldn't you say? Cops are a collection of different types of people, some are in to guns, some are not. But all train similarly. If you are going to compare a competition rimfire pistol shooter shooting at a static target with a cop shooting a 40 calibre pistol under duress and fear for his life, you are absolutely insane."</i>

    Cherry picking what you want from a post AGAIN, 548? In addition to .22LR, I also mentioned .357 Mag and .44 Mag in my post, which you conveniently left out.

    And training is supposed to work towards preventing cops panicking and spraying and praying so that they hit their target and not an innocent bystander or hostage. This is CIVILIAN law enforcement, not a military action.

    The problem is there is a double standard at work.

    If a citizen sprayed and prayed, hitting innocent bystanders, he'd be crucified in court.

    When a cop sprays and prays, killing an innocent bystander or a hostage, well, that's just, what did you say, oh yeah, being "under duress and fear for his life". So he gets off scot free for criminal liability, and for the civil suit the taxpayers get to cough up the legal fees, liability and damage awards.

    If what you say is an example of how the police in your department operate, then there really needs to be some house cleaning and better training. Any cop who believes duress and fear makes it OK to kill innocent bystanders and hostages through inferior marksmanship needs to resign or be terminated.
     
  17. spritc

    spritc Active Member

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    Remember, when seconds count, the police are minutes away. Be prepared to handle any situation yourself. Take classes, go to the range and practice. Your life is your responsibility. The police cannot be there to protect you or your family. Even though Odumbass and Diane Frankenstein want you to believe they can.
     
  18. 548

    548 Guest

    Brian, you are convicting the cop with no evidence. How do you know the victim hostage didn't unintentionally put herself in the line of fire in her effort to escape the danger?

    Between the two of us, there is a lot of cherry picking going on, but not on my part. Your holyier than thou and all knowing attitude has gotten obnoxious.
     
  19. 548

    548 Guest

    Good advice Kolar.
     
  20. Brian in Oregon

    Brian in Oregon Well-Known Member

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    548, it was YOUR justification for the shooting and how cops operate, saying spray and pray (specifically "duress and fear") being OK to forgo marksmanship and claiming marksmanship is not needed, that I was responding to.

    If you want to discuss the cop in question, fine, let's do so. I think there needs to be an investigation to see if manslaughter charges are warranted, just as would happen for any citizen in the same situation. And if he recklessly shot, then he needs to go to jail.
     
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