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Shot String Article - pretty good...

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by grnberetcj, Apr 4, 2008.

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  1. grnberetcj

    grnberetcj Active Member

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    http://www.gundogsonline.com/Article/that-shot-string-thing-Page2.htm

    Seems like a decent article and makes sense.

    Just an FYI

    Curt
     
  2. timb99

    timb99 Well-Known Member

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    Seems to bear out what many on this forum have been saying all along. A long shot string is a bad thing.
     
  3. grnberetcj

    grnberetcj Active Member

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    Yep.....but I'm sure we'll find some that will disagree.....probably a member(s) of the "Flat Earth Society".

    Curt
     
  4. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    It's a terrific article - the best I've ever read on the subject; it covers just about everything in little more than a page. Everyone should read it and I hope they will.

    Neil
     
  5. Capt. Morgan

    Capt. Morgan TS Member

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    Model Ts and shooting at lakes...interesting...an unscientific assembly of theorys conjectures and opinions, but interesting. Put it side-by-side with what's written in works like "Trapshooting: Game of Opposites" and you've covered the subject from end to end.

    Ever notice that when some new theory about anything surfaces, it immediately becomes the correct one regardless of how long the previous one had held that position?

    You pays your money and you takes your choice.

    Morgan
     
  6. Avaldes

    Avaldes Well-Known Member

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    "an unscientific assembly of theorys conjectures and opinions"

    Was there anything written in that article that was untrue from a physics stand point?

    -Aaron
     
  7. front242

    front242 Member

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    That's a reprint of a section of "Successful Shotgunning", a book by Peter Blakely. I'm reading it right now. It's a well written book that covers tons of stuff. The sections on reading and leading a target are very interesting. He's into bird shooting and sporting clays pretty heavily. There are plenty of tidbits that you can apply to trap.

    Tim
    F242
     
  8. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Joe- I can see how choke constriction could lengthen the shot column around 1/4 inch but differential air resistance will lengthen it several feet.

    One thing that was omitted as a possible cause of shot string was the complex air turbulence caused by the leading shot.

    Morgan- This is not a new theory. It is simply a brief explanation of the only accepted cause of shot string. Also, simple arithmetic comparing the target speed and the shot speed show that shot string is a best, not a factor in hitting a target and is possibly detrimental.

    Pat Ireland
     
  9. Hauxfan

    Hauxfan Well-Known Member

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    I'm putting my hopes on that "silver BB" that I load into each and every shell.

    Hauxfan!
     
  10. Avaldes

    Avaldes Well-Known Member

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    It seems that the "squirting" effect on shot has been documented by those who have chronograhed with different chokes. Full producing a faster load than IC. It is reasonable to think that the friction of the choke would slow the outer ring of shot and wad when it exits the barrel. The center shot which was not in direct contact with the choke can "squirt" forward.

    Trans-sonic effects on spheres can develop shocks much earlier than the speed of sound. So the drag increase begins before you "cross over" to sonic speed. And likewise, when the shot slows down, the sonic effects remain until it is well below the speed of sound.

    Without putting too much thought into it, I am sure there is some point when the shot are dispersed sufficiently that they no longer act like a group, and begin to act like 400 separate spheres. At that point the "shedding" of the outer layer of shot would stop and the remainder of flight would continue based exclusively on exchange of kinetic energy for drag and potential energy (all slow at the same rate and fall at the same rate).

    -Aaron
     
  11. jalu

    jalu Member

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    OK biff, I'll bite, whats the David Riddle Theory? Just curious....
     
  12. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Does anybody think that not being able to explain something has anything to do with whether it is true or not?

    Morgan, you gave me a fright there. He didn't say anything about "shooting at lakes" which is about as easy to disprove misunderstanding in the shot-string panoply of them. I wonder why you brought it up with no warning that it wasn't in the article. And then you go on:

    "an unscientific assembly of theorys conjectures and opinions, " which you need to explain if we are to take it seriously.

    Neil
     
  13. biff

    biff Active Member

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    Jalu,
    Dave says, "Just shoot the D_mned things!", works without all the theory as he has proved so many times!!! Glad you asked. Biff
     
  14. Jawhawker

    Jawhawker TS Member

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    So is it to be understood that we use weak (ie cyl., imp cyl.) for trap and tight chokes for skeet??? Does this mean I've been lied to all my life about yet another item??
     
  15. waverider

    waverider Well-Known Member

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    pheasantmaster,

    I see it as the other way. With a more open choke, you get a longer shot string that is not as dense as a shot string from a tight choke. So you will be depending on luck to break the target. Don't get me wrong it is not bad to be lucky, but it is statistically impossible to be lucky ALL the time.

    Neil,

    I believe if some thing happens that defies what I think should happen, I should re-evaluate my thinking. 8)

    Jason
     
  16. jbbor

    jbbor Active Member

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    So is the movement of the shot in a downrange shot string laminar or turbulent? Is the flow characteristic for the outer shot layer the same as the inner layer? Neil, did you ask Mike Jordan about testing large bore shotguns? My memory is he said the large bore made the shot string very short. Jimmy Borum
     
  17. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Jimmy, I don't know about large bore shotguns, but may get a chance to talk to Mike next week and I'll ask.

    The article above is mostly a reworking of a blockbuster which appeared in American Rifleman in December, 1989. The article explains - with a bit less theory - what happens and shows pictures. When it first came out, NO ONE believed it. But they should have.

    (edited in light of a later post)

    Nel
     
  18. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Mark, I think you will find that my results were quite different from what you are remembering.

    The main points were:

    1. One-ounce loads do not shoot "tighter" when that term is used as it usually understood. But there is a way that the "tighter" argument can be made.

    The one-ounce loads are thinner everywhere - they start out with fewer pellets. When you move out from the center you see fewer and fewer pellets. So if you want to think about a pattern "core" as being the part that will (almost) surely break a target, then it's going to be smaller with the one ounce load. So while the pattern percentages are unchanged, the "effective core" (you want to read wishy-washy? Try "effective core!) is smaller for the one-ouncer. But it really doesn't "hold together better;" it just acts that way because it gives out sooner as you move away from the pattern center.

    2. Speeding up the shot from "light" to "handicap" did not cause it to spread more.

    Neil
     
  19. dynapro

    dynapro TS Member

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    Did that article actually say "waterfoul".... must be an inside joke with the editors. Thanks for reprinting that article Neil.

    Pat - could you discuss differential air turbulance. Does not compute. Thx.
     
  20. crusha

    crusha TS Member

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    I think what Brister and others have said is that, what happens in those first few feet of external travel are most important.

    Their reasoning is that the tighter choke, by virtue of a smaller initial pattern, partially shields more of the shot pellets from the full brunt of the initial drag.

    Or put another way: the faster the pattern spreads out "horizontally" (perpendicularly to the velocity vector), the faster the pellets start to peel backwards "vertically" (in the opposite direction to the velocity vector).

    Faster spread in the "W" direction means faster spread in the "L" direction.

    Yes...eventually, the pellets start to act like 400+ individual spheres...but tighter chokes delay the onset of that regime. By lessening "early" spread of pellets in the "W" direction, tight chokes also delay the development of spread in the "L" direction.

    Put simplest of all: pellet spread in the "W" direction correlates positively with pellet spread in the "L" direction. For years, the B.S. theorists were telling us the opposite; that spread in the "W" and "L" directions were inversely correlated. But there is simply no logical reason for anybody who has been paying attention to research since, say, the 1960's, to believe that.

    Spread in the "W" and "L" directions is positively correlated.
     
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