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Shot Metering

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by brent375hh, Oct 21, 2009.

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  1. brent375hh

    brent375hh TS Member

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    My 366 throws +- 20 grains with #8 shot and +- 32 with 7-1/2 over a sample of 10.

    Is this the norm, or would new washers help?

    Thanks
     
  2. tcr1146

    tcr1146 Well-Known Member

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    You have some gurus on here that claim they throw within 1-2 grns. That is pure B.S.! However, 20 - 32 is far outside what you should vary! I have not loaded on a 366 for several years, but this is too much variation! 4-6 is normally doable on my Mec without any problem! Something is wrong if you vary that much! Tom Rhoads
     
  3. wolfram

    wolfram Well-Known Member

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    If you aren't using a baffle in the shot tube then get one. Also double check the drop tube for anything that might cause a few pieces of shot to hang up. Check the rubber washer for rips and replace if it isn't in good shape. Clean the slide and polish off ant rough spots that may be on the contact surfaces. Make sure the slide roller bearing is lubed and rotating freely and with minimal slop.

    A normal variation would be +/- 2% or about 10 grains with the smaller shot.
     
  4. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    wolfram- A baffle would help if the shot could be compressed. But even the softest shot cannot be compressed by the weight above it in the bottle.

    Brent- are you pulling the Handel up and down with out and forceful jerky movements?

    Pat Ireland
     
  5. wolfram

    wolfram Well-Known Member

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    Pat,

    It isn't compression of the material so much as it is the variable amount of pressure on the material entering the cone of the shot dropper. In extreme cases the end result is rat holing or bridging but usually what you get is erratic discharge from the bin. The baffle takes the pressure off of the conical section and ensures free flowing material into the discharge point of the bin which in this case is the shot bushing. This is something I deal with routinely in the mineral processing industry. Also the reason newer 366s come with baffles in both the shot and powder tubes.
     
  6. brent375hh

    brent375hh TS Member

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    First off I misinformed y'all. The total spread was 20 & 32, not 40 & 64 as I had unintentionally indicated.

    New shot. I picked up some reclaimed but did not try it yet. It looks to be all 7-1/2. That kind of surprised me. I thought it would be more 50/50 and I hoped for more 8s

    No baffle. Will get one.

    I will also replace my washers.

    I certainly do not intend to jerk the handle, although there are times that I can feel the shot (especially 7-1/2) stick and require an extra effort that in turn causes a little bit of jerky motion.

    Thanks for your input.
     
  7. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    I have reloaded shotshell ammo since 1970 and I have never weighed a shot charge. I am a little curious as I see these discussion on here from time to time. I have to wonder what difference it makes what the shot weighs? How does it affect performance. Or I guess a better question would be what does it affect?

    Bob Lawless
     
  8. stokinpls

    stokinpls Well-Known Member

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    Once you find out the MEC 118 bar is throwing 464 grains(1 1/16oz.), and you cut open a AA handicap and find it has 515 grains of shot in it, you'll never use a fixed bar/bushing set up again. Too bad they don't make a Universal Charge Bar for a 366.

    That aside, your shot variance is too high. What do your crimps look like? Sure you don't have some shotbag string caught somewhere in the path?
     
  9. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Bob- Many reloaders have never weighed their shot drops. Few of us would ever trust a chart to determine what a powder bushing will drop, but many trust the chart to determine what the shot that bushings drop. It is my opinion that many more shooters actually shoot loads with 1 1/16 oz of shot than 1 1/8 oz of shot.

    wolfram- Voids or bridging in the shot drop would, in theory, be most likely with very low pressure above the bushing. Baffles do reduce the pressure of the shot as it fills the bushing. In my simple mind, I see shot moving from the shot bottle into the bushing more similar to a fluid than a solid. Because of the weight of the shot, it will flow easily into the bushing with little pressure above it (shot bottle nearly empty or shot bottle with a baffle). More pressure (shot bottle full, no baffle) would cause the shot to flow into the bushing faster but the volume that ends up in the bushing should be the same.

    My PW also has a baffle in the shot hopper. This seems to be more of a sales promotion item rather than one that improves things. I could be wrong, but I just can't develop a model in my mind that convinces me I am wrong. I will try to get around to testing my idea this weekend.

    Pat Ireland
     
  10. dverna

    dverna Active Member

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    Pat,
    Sometimes common sense needs to be proved.

    Run two sets of tests. One with the baffle one without.

    Weigh 10 charges with the shot hopper full, ten with it at 50%, and ten with it at 10%. Measure the mean and SD. Do this before Neil sees this thread

    I do not have a shot baffle in my PW as it shipped without one. But I help with pretty graphs.

    Don Verna
     
  11. TjayE

    TjayE Member

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    519.5 grains of shot would be 1 3/16 ounces of shot. Illegal load of shot for ATA registered shooting.
     
  12. tcr1146

    tcr1146 Well-Known Member

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    You guys are pretty naive about the super caps shells! I have cut Nitros and Silver bullets out of several lot #s and I have found as high as 521 grns of the nicest shot I have seen! Never have I found one under 505 grns! Why do you think aside from the velocity that the big boys shoot them?! Stokinpls in spot on! Tom Rhoads
     
  13. esoxhunter

    esoxhunter Well-Known Member

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    I load with a Hornady 366. I do not routinely check my shot drops. I have a bushing that I reamed out that throws 445 grains of #8 hard shot. I just went out to the shop and weighed 15 loads. It varied anywhere from 450 to 440. ( + / - 5 grains). However in the majority of drops it varied anywhere from + / - 3 grains. That is not a huge variance when measuring a shot drop. Ed
     
  14. zzt

    zzt Well-Known Member

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    Brent, here are some insights formed during my 366 loading days. First and foremost, consistent operation is the key to consistent throw weights. Once you have that down, here are some other things to try.

    Make sure the screw holding the shell plate down stays put, and is adjusted properly. Mine had a tendency to let go. When it did, the plate got harder and harder to turn. That affects consistency. Also, if you can keep it just low enough to turn smoothly, spilled shot can't get under the plate retainer and cause jerks or jams.

    If you "upgraded" to the powder and shot shut-off and baffles. Return the machine to standard ASAP. The cut-off mechanism cuts shot and powder and those pieces stay in the mechanism. Sometimes they interfere, requiring more effort. Sometimes they stick and let go causing a jerk. Sometimes there is no effect at all. Any way you slice it, it causes inconsistency.

    Make sure your deprime punch is set properly and centered, and the collection box isn't too full.

    Keep your hulls organized. If you are reloading only hulls (same brand) that you shot previously in your gun, operation of the press is more consistent, because the resizing die always sees the same thing. If you shoot picked up hulls mixed with your own, or you mix STS and Gun Club hulls, you will find the effort to complete the loading stroke varies quite a bit. That effects consistency.

    Placing the upgrade baffle in the shot tube CAUSES inconsistency. Contrary to what Tom Rhoads says, I usually get consistency within 2 grains of shot unless something causes a glitch. When I put the baffle in, by variations were higher- consistently higher. I called Hornady and was told the powder baffle helped, but the shot baffle hurt. I took it out and everything returned to normal.

    Clean and turn over the rubber washer under the shot tube in the tube housing.

    Hope some of this helps.
     
  15. DTrykow

    DTrykow Active Member

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    esoxhunter: What did you ream with? (be nice). I have MEC 9000 that needs a good reamimg. She's throws light shot loads. Dave T.
     
  16. esoxhunter

    esoxhunter Well-Known Member

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    Dave: I have a Dremel tool. I use a small "barrel sander" attachment and place the bushing in a vise. I then ream it a little at a time. I then test it and if it needs more; I ream again and test again. I would imagine you could do the same with a "rat tail" file. It may be crude, but it works. Good Luck. Ed
     
  17. wolfram

    wolfram Well-Known Member

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    Pat,

    I think you do in fact have the type of mind that can 'get it'. One way to think about this problem is to consider the column of shot moving down the cylindical portion of the shot bin as a fluid. When this moving fluid reaches the conical section it must change velocity. Remember velocity is a vector with an implied direction. That resulting change in direction means there are now forces other than gavity being applied to the shot. These other forces are applied in a direction perpendicular to the surface of the cone and depending on the size, density and shape of the moving particles, these other forces may actually counter the effects of gravity and just like that you get an interuption of bin flow.

    There are specific design parameters for bin with conical sections that take these factors into consideration with the main design objective being the angle of the conical section. Materials with high potential to bridge or rat hole require very gentle cone angles (long cones) free flowing materials will go through really sharp angle cones with no problem. Small shot that is graphited and very round flows well, bigger shot or rough shot not so well.

    You load on a PW, I load on a 366. If you were to compare the conical section of the shot dispenser on the two machines you would notice the PW has and more gradual cone angle which is a better design but also more costly. The baffle makes them equal until you get into really big shot like #4 and greater. The reason the baffle works is because the velocity vector of the material in the cone is essentially parallel with the cone wall with nearly zero component in opposition to the effects of gravity.

    If you want to test it out, try charting the weight distributions of 10 or so drops using various sizes and if possible various qualities of shot. For an extreme example, include some unprocessed reclaimed shot in the test. Do this with and without the baffle starting with at least 1/2 hopper full of shot.
     
  18. DTrykow

    DTrykow Active Member

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    esoxhunter: I have a Dremel. I will try that. Thanks, Dave T.
     
  19. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    wolfram- I do intend to test the effectiveness of the shot baffles. I understand what you explained above and I now see one problem with my post to you. I only have and load two sizes of shot (7.5 and 8). The only shot I have is new factory stuff. Also, as you noted, the shot hoppers on my PW do have an angular bottom section that tends to eliminate some of the factors you described. I now recognize that the results of my tests will only be applicable to #8 factory shot dropped from a PW press.

    Pat Ireland
     
  20. Basicdesignmachine

    Basicdesignmachine TS Member

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    Hornady manufactures shot bushings for Feild loads, 7-1/2,8's and 9 shot.The diameter of these decreases the smaller the shot size via less space between the pellets in the smaller shot sizes.If your using 8 shot you can change to the bushing for 7-1/2's that would make your shot weigth alot closer to the amount you want. Or you can switch to a P/W bushing like I did
    Lou Engelmann

    [​IMG]
     
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