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Shot irregularity (pics) - does it matter?

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by xb2dr, Feb 5, 2008.

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  1. xb2dr

    xb2dr TS Member

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    I'm an ACTA A grade shooter which means I am shooting DTL at %94. When I miss targets, I almost always know just before I pull the trigger that I am going to miss them. (head not on the gun properly, not comfortable before I call pull etc) But there is the odd target every now and then that I am actually surprised that doesn't break.

    Out of curiosity, I cut a shell open and examined it's contents. The picture here is that of the shot. There is very few pellets that I would call round. Some are oversized, some are undersized. Some are egg shaped and there is even a half pellet in there that looks like it got caught in the gate that measures the shot drop into the shell. The wad is of a design that I have not seen before.. It has an uneven (but deliberate) spacing around it which tends to make the wad lean to one side. It, and a complete shell can be seen here

    http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a36/xb2dr/IMG_1131.jpg

    http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a36/xb2dr/IMG_1130.jpg

    I am concerned that the wad lean and shot irregularity might be costing me targets...?

    These shells are AU$155 per 500, which equates to about US$138 per 500. They are GB brand which are made in Spain (apparently in the same factory as the Rio shells).

    I would not call them a top of the line shell but there is certainly a lot of cheaper shells on the market here. They are one of GB's higher quality (cost) shell.

    Basically, what I want to know is, from those who have looked at the pics, do you think these problems with this particular brand shell could contribute to lost targets? I am certainly not a "bad tradesman trying to blame his tools" but I'd like to eliminate any source of lost targets that I can. I have quite a few cases of these GB Prius to get through before they are gone but I might switch to another brand once they are gone if it will help my scores. I'm pretty sure the black (Australian made) Winchester AA 1300 is a very similar performing shell to these blue GB Prius. The only drawback is that they are about AU$180 per 500 (US$160 per 500)

    Looking forward to your thoughts..

    Brett.
     
  2. zzt

    zzt Well-Known Member

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    In my opinion you are a good enough shooter to know if you were on and the target didn't break. It happens, and when it does, it is the choke/load that failed.

    You have two things working against you. First is the shot. A mixture of slightly different sizes doesn't make any difference. There are many over here who believe that is a plus. The out of roundness is a problem to start, and I'll wager the shot isn't very hard which compounds the problem.

    The second problem is the wad. Cocked like that is bad. They are B&P T2 wads, sold as "Lightning" wads in this country. I bought 2000 to try. Loading them in Fiocchi hulls, I was surprised at the lousy results I was getting. I patterned some and was surprised to see more than the usual unevenness. Some patterns were just plain skewed. When I bought some clear hulls from Ballistic Products I noticed that if the T2 wad was compressed with the wad ram while being inserted, it sprang back pretty much to it's original shape. However, when the shot was dropped and then crimped, the wad was distorted just like in your pix.

    B&P only uses that wad for 24g loads. The wad is also .729+" in diameter. If you use it in a thin hull, where it will slip in easily, and you do not compress it when crimping, it works. From the amount yours is compressed I'd say someone used them for 1 oz loads they were not intended for. However, a high base wad hull will do the same thing with a 24g load. I finally gave up on the wads and gave the remaining 1500 to a friend to try. He hated them and gave the rest away to another club member. She hated them and finally solved the problem by throwing them away.

    So that would actually be three strikes for me. I don't like out of round shot. I don't like that wad in anything other than the hull it was designed for. And I haven't liked anything I've shot from UEE the company that makes Rio shells, with the possible exception of the Kemen shells sold here. There are billed as premium shells. They are better than Rio, but I only shot 2 flats in warm weather, so I really can't say for sure.

    Use up what you have for practice and find a better load for competition.
     
  3. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    The out of round, and as zzt suggested, probably soft shot is not at all uncommon in discount shells. To make a shell in Spain, ship it to other countries and have it sell at a lower price, something has to be cut and it is usually the components. I have also seen the same shot variation in 25 pound bags of shot from South America.

    But, it seems that more discount shells are shot at larger shoots than reloads or premium factory brands. Many good scores have been shot with discount shells. If a shooter breaks a 95 in handicap using discount shells, there is absolutely no way to tell if he would have broken more or less using premium shells.

    Pat Ireland
     
  4. zzt

    zzt Well-Known Member

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    sarge, I have verified that the shot contained in Rio shells is_not 5-6% Antimony. I'd give it a charitable 2-3% rating. The shot in Kemen shells is rounder, more uniform and harder.
     
  5. Tripod

    Tripod Well-Known Member

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    Iowa man!!
    Boy I was a believer in round shot till I loaded some Hevi-shot. It looked like welding slag but knocked the crap out of high flying geese.
     
  6. porky

    porky TS Member

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    All shot works from the 16 yd line. Square, oblong, teardrop, it doesn't matter. When you shoot handicap, good patterns are really necessary. Rely on the best trap shell for handicap.
     
  7. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    zzt- I believe you should have stated that the Rio shot you tested was 2-3% antimony. The next batch of shot the company purchased might have been very different. If I were producing the least expensive shell possible I know what I would look for each time I had to order components.

    Pat Ireland
     
  8. zzt

    zzt Well-Known Member

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    point taken.
     
  9. xb2dr

    xb2dr TS Member

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    Thanks for all the input.. I've got about 4000 rounds of this stuff to get through. In the mean time I will buy a few packets of different brand shells Winchester/Express/Federal and spend some time on the pattern board. Will get some pics and post them here if you're interested?

    Thanks again,
    Brett.
     
  10. Hooligan

    Hooligan Member

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    Brett - hi from a fellow Aussie.
    Just as a matter of interest RIO,Kemen, and Eley shells are all made by UEE although the Eley are from the UK factory. Only the base grade ammo is imported here to compete on a price basis. Winchester still continues in production here
    and we also import from USA. Rediculous as it may be the imported ammunition is cheaper than the locally produced! It is called "Free Trade Agreement".
    Winchester AA can be bought for around $165.00 a case (500) in Melbourne
    whilst all the cheaper stuff like RIO etc is around $140.00. Personally I use the locally made Champion 7.5/28/1250. Ballantyne who makes Champion manufactures and supplies shot to Winchester Australia. It is 6% antimony and uses Vectan powder, Fiochii cases and primers.Price now is $140.00 at the factory door.
    I do not believe it is as consistent as Win AA but is better than the same priced alternatives. BTW Winchester Australia is still loading the older style AA cases.
    I have seen quite a bit of Federal about lately however what I have seen has all been the lower grade "Top Gun" at around $135.00 a case.
    Barry
     
  11. xb2dr

    xb2dr TS Member

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    Hi Barry,

    Yes, I've shot Champions before. I had a case of it that I bought about 10 years ago when the SSAA club that I was in had a makeshift trap layout setup. When I joined the ACTA and started shooting properly in 2006 I used up these Champions. After that I just started buying what the club sold which was the red GB Trap 7.5 28g 1220. I heard that Champion got a big load of primed Fiocchi cases that had the primer seated too deep. A lot of people getting failure to fires in guns that normally shoot with no problems. At the Bundaberg 2 day shoot last year I saw this myself as the local dealer was selling cases out the back of his truck. I'd say that Champion/Ballantine have sorted that out by now. Do you know if they have any 1300fps shells? After shooting the GB Prius 7.5 28g 1300 I really like the extra speed. I went up to the club last friday after work with no gun. There were some blokes practicing so I grabbed some of the red 1220fps GB and borrowed a mate's Miroku to have a round. I really noticed the difference going back to the slower shell.. One good thing about the Ballantine/Champion stuff is that they still use a tower to make their shot - is that still true? If so I'm guessing their shot quality is very good. I'll look into getting some of the Champions try on the board as well. You're right about the Federal Top-Gun - they do look like a very cheap shell but I didn't think they were as low as $135/case - that might be Melbourne pricing. Things are a little dearer half way up Queensland. I've seen a few people shoot them and the shells look a bit ordinary to me but you can't hold that against them if they perform on targets. Good to talk to you.. Brett.
     
  12. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Hooligan- I was surprised that you are able to buy shells in a case of 500. We have only flats of 250 available. Our 500 shell cases have been gone for several years.

    Pat Ireland
     
  13. superxjeff

    superxjeff Active Member

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    I learned a long time ago that the shape of a pellet is not nearly as important as how hard a pellet it. We tend to think that an out of round pellet must be soft but that is not always true. I use to load #3 lead that West Coast screened out of numer 2 and number 4 pellets. It was ugly and not always round. In fact some of it loked like fotballs, but it was very hard and was wonderful for shooting long snow geese with my 10 ga as well as bant Tailed Pigeons at 50 plus yards. Heavy shot is hard and some of it is nearly square. Guess what??? It makes square holes in the pattern paper at 55 yards. If a square pellet can go 55 yards and hit a pattern board it can do the same to a bird. Hardness is the key.. Not shape. Is it better to have both? Sure it is but I would rather have hard then round. Thankfully we as reloaders of trap loads do not normally have to choose. Jeff
     
  14. Hooligan

    Hooligan Member

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    Pat, All shells available here now come in flats of 250 except Champion which still packages in cases of 500.
    Brett, The 7.5/28/1250 Champions have a 1250fps velocity specified at 3ft, velocity at the muzzle is specified as 1375fps. They have made several improvements in the last couple of months. They were $130.00 but increased to 140 last week.
    Yes Ballantine still owns the shot tower and supplies hard shot to Win. If you want to pursue the supply you are welcome to give me a ring one night as it is only $2.00 after 7pm for unlimited time. I do not know where in QLD you are ( I used to live at Nerang) but you can email me for a phone number if you wish. Barry
     
  15. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    superxJeff- The only reason I know of for using hard shot is so that it will keep its shape as it travel down the barrel. Soft shot will break a target as well as hard shot.

    The really strange Heavi shot by Remington is in a class by itself. It is not comparable to "normal" shot. I have no idea how it works.

    Pat Ireland
     
  16. superxjeff

    superxjeff Active Member

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    Pat the reason you use hard shot is that more of it winds up on the target and it will penatrate deeper.Soft shot will break a target as long as it gets there in the first place.Jeff
     
  17. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    zzt, my notebook, in a single test, says that Kemen shot is soft, as determined by my weight-drop tester. It's an old test and undated, so I can't relate it to current production. How did you determine the antimony-content of Rio vs Kemen?

    Neil
     
  18. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Brett, based on what you've told us, I think it's a little early to say that your unexplained losses are due to the shells you are using.

    Certainly the maker's choice of wads looks all wrong and we all wonder why they would do as they do. It's so easy to find a correct one, after all.

    As far as the roundness, that shot doesn't look much worse than many examples I've tested which seem to pattern OK. And we're guessing about shot hardness since we don't know. And even if it is soft, there's little reason to think that would cost you any targets. See link above. That test was done with a Perazzi IM choke and at a distance I use to simulate 16 yards, like DTL. It seemed to indicate that with that choke the soft shot would work as well as hard.

    One thing we'd like to know is what choke you are using for the two available shots? What do the winners use?

    Neil
     
  19. 686

    686 TS Member

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    i wonder what factory shot would look like if you caught it in the air after it was shot before it hit the ground. in a big sheet or something like that. i think it will have dings in them. i have bought reclamed shot that looked like that. i think the dents hapen in the barel when the shell is fired. if this it right then perfit round shot is not a must. my home made , a little out of round works good. what do you think.?
     
  20. xb2dr

    xb2dr TS Member

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    Neil,

    Gun is 30" Pigeon 101. Bottom barrel is fixed 3/4 and top is fixed Full. I have not measured them. I do not know how hard the shot is. There is no reference to antimony content on the box. You're probably right... after reading all the good replies to this topic, it seems that the shot quality of these shells is on par with the majority out there. Sure, there are better ones out there but these shells are certainly not loaded with rubbish shot. The wad...? Just as the comments about patterning your gun on paper do not simulate shot hitting a target, perhaps this wad is perfectly ok when it is being forced up the barrel behind a load of shot? Sitting on the bench uncompressed and far from it's condition upon pulling the trigger is no way to tell if it is sub standard. I'm starting to wish that I'd never cut it open and saw how it looks. I have shot 25/25 scores with this ammo and perhaps I was being a little over confident when I indicated that the ammo is at fault when I don't hit them all.

    Brett.
     
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