1. Attention: We have put together a thread with tips and a tutorial video to help with using the new software. Please take a moment to check out the thread here: Trapshooters.com Tutorial & Help Video.
    Dismiss Notice

shot brand differences

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by shoottilithurts, May 15, 2008.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. shoottilithurts

    shoottilithurts Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    148
    looking for advice on shot brand differences, comparisons thanks milt luther
     
  2. superxjeff

    superxjeff Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    3,781
    Hi Milt! You want the hardest shot you can get. Some brands are known for how hard they are and others for how cheap they are. There is no cheap hard shot. Antimony is very expensive and cheap shot has very little. Often you will see XX hard xxx hard... That is all bullsh%T... If it says 5 % antimony then the bag is required by law to be 5% Antimony. Another term is Magnum grade now with some shot companys Magnum grade is the harder of two products that they sell. The cheaper is chilled shot. If they don't list the Antimony then the magnum grade in theory would be higher in Antimony. This is why I shoot Westcost shot for all long range shells and if I load any shells for handicap( Which for as often as I get to shoot anymore I just shoot factory STS Remington's) If you can buy Remington "Target grade shot or STS shot) That is very hard shot but do to shipping we no longer get itin the west as far as I know. I haven't seen any Remington target or STS grade shot in years but it was some fine hard shot. In pattern testing I have done the diffrence between soft and hard shot with #8 shot and a full choke at 35 yards was about 70 pellets in a 30 inch circle. Can you imagine if you are shooting an ounce load how much that drops it? Guys that shoot soft shot and claim they would never shot 1oz loads becuase they are losing too many pellets will turn right around and load an 1 1/8 oz load with soft shot and get an end result that is less pellets then if they had started out with a 1OZ load of hard shot.
    That's the facts Milt and most guys don't want to hear it let alone acknowlage it because it requires them to go to the pattern board and count small holes in large pieces of paper.
    Other easy ways to find out if you have one brand of shot that is harder then another when you have several to choose from and no way to tell how hard the shot in the bag is are as follows.
    ....First weight out an ounce of each.
    ......#2- you a mic and mike 20 pellets to see if the pellets are the size they are stated to be. If the pellts are larger then you will get fewer of them and this will screw up the whole soft VS hard equation.
    ......#3-Once you have two batches of shot that are for the most part equal, count the pellets. The load with the most pellets is the harder of the two as Antimony is very light. If you load Northwest shot with an 1 1/8 OZ bar you get a full measure by volume that weighs on average 1 1/8 ounce or very,very close to it. Westcoast shot on the other hand gives you 1 1/16 oz of shot so you must adjust your charge bar to get a full measure of shot. Needless to say that extra 1/16 of an OZ is extra pellets that you were not getting by volume do to the fact that the pellts are the same size although they are lighter.
    ...needless to say another argument then comes up... Am I really shooting 7 3/4 size shot since it is not as heavy? Well..... By weight you are and by size you are not.
    Anyway Milt.... The stuff that is 6 to 8 bucks a sack cheaper is the soft stuff as a rule. If you are shooting singles or doubles it will work just fine. UI have shot tons of it for starlings in size 9 as well as for skeet or any shooting that is closer then 30 yards. All the diffrences are much more easily seen at distance then up close. Back the gun off to 50 yards and then count holes... If that doesn't make you an instant believer in hard shot then a frontal labotamy is in order.... Jeff
     
  3. Ljutic Guy

    Ljutic Guy Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    252
    That was a good read SuperxJeff.
     
  4. shot410ga

    shot410ga Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    7,778
    Buy the cheapest brand. They all work.
     
  5. superxjeff

    superxjeff Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    3,781
    Not true shot410ga. Up close you can get by with soft shot the same can not be said at a distance. Jeff
     
  6. maclellan1911

    maclellan1911 TS Member

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2006
    Messages:
    4,226
    I have never seen Remington shot, never. Massachusetts. Its always lawrence or STAR imported shot
     
  7. mike moncilovich

    mike moncilovich TS Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2007
    Messages:
    185
    Ah yes,back around 1990 before i took my hiatus, there was quite a few shot makers. The likes of such, Remmington. Winchester, All-American, Lawrence and of course imported Star to name a few. Now all I see is Westcostly and some old lawrence bags at Gander with the derrick logo and shot size faded off. Is there a monopoly brewing in the shot making? Or perhaps just out-sourcing by the ammo manufacturing cos. Soon we'll be shooting Bing-Bang Yang shot from China...Mike
     
  8. BDodd

    BDodd TS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    3,594
    I hate to burst any bubbles but all my 100s in 16s were with local, pretty darned soft, and marginally reliable sized shot. I usually know exactly why I miss birds and it's not the shot.....Bob Dodd
     
  9. superxjeff

    superxjeff Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    3,781
    The question is about quality Bob not weather or not junk shot will work up close. I agree that junk shot will work up close but that doesn't mean hard shot doesn't put a whole lot more holes in the pattern. At a distance the results are crucial for 16 yard trap they are not. Jeff
     
  10. JBrooks

    JBrooks TS Member

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2006
    Messages:
    3,707
    Right now lead is about $1.05 per pound and antimony is about $2.75 per pound.

    If you do the math, I think that every percentage point of antimony costs about $.43 per 25 lbs so the difference between 2% antimony and 5% antimony is about $1.30 per bag. As such, why do you suppose; 1. All shot doesn't contain 5% antimony? 2. That that does costs $6 to $8 per bag more?

    Now the only reason that hard shot would pattern better is that fewer pellets are deformed prior to leaving the barrel. If this is true, why not use steel shot?
     
  11. superxjeff

    superxjeff Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    3,781
    I think the difficulty of incorparating the Antimony is the biggest reason. It melts at a much higher point then lead. I know when a frind was making shot he tried to do it and just couldn't get an even mix. Jeff
     
  12. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    7,848
    Data from an old test I did with hard and soft shot (at 16-yard appropriate distance) which surprised me.

    Last spring a poster (Old Cowboy=John) shot some patterns with hard and soft shot and said he couldn’t tell the difference by looking at them.

    I noted that in order to test hard vs. soft you need test that part – how “soft” or “hard” the pellets actually are - of the experiment first. I also predicted that once that is done, you will be able to tell by looking most of the time.

    This experiment tests soft and hard shot and compared their patterns.

    The Shot:

    Lawrence chilled 8’s crushed an average of 0.29 inches using my drop-test apparatus. This is about as soft as you can buy.

    Remington magnum 8’s crushed an average of 0.22 inches using my drop-test apparatus. This is about as hard as you can buy.

    Two other brands of magnum-labeled shot crushed 0.025 and 0.024 respectively, which is why you have to test it.

    The Test:

    Eleven-hundred-fifty foot per second shells were loaded with the two kinds of shot, using Red Dot and changing only the shot. Since the use of soft shot is commonly singles, 10 patterns were shot using each through the bottom barrel of a Perazzi O/U with a “factory” 0.028” choke. The distance was 34 years, again to simulate singles. Patterns were photographed and analyzed with Shotgun-insight software.

    Results:

    The first question was whether you can see a difference. An uninvolved observer who didn’t know the theory compared 7 pairs of patterns, one hard, one soft. In 4 cases he said the hard-shot patterns were more dense, in three he saw no difference. As I compare them after computer analysis, the first pattern with the first of the other group, the second with the second and so on, I see six where the hard-shot patterns are more dense, three with no difference, and one where the soft-shot pattern looks denser.

    Conclusion: I wouldn’t count on telling them apart by eye alone, but if I had to make a guess, I’d be right more often than wrong most of the time. This is not a strong advocacy for either a big difference between them or the ability of the eye to tell you much. All in all, I’d say my claim that I could tell them apart was said with more certainly last spring than I feel now.

    Detailed Analysis:

    [​IMG]


    As the title of the graph says, hard-shot patterns are more concentrated in the center and have higher total percentages as well. Soft shot puts 24% of its pellets in the 20- to 30-inch ring, compared to 20+% for the other type. Though the difference is not statistically significant I think the picture shows it happens more often than not, roughly speaking.

    Looking at it using a different metric, the diameter which would hold 75% of the shot is 24+ inches with soft shot, 21+ inches with the hard. This number is not entirely valid when some shot “lost,” that is, doesn’t appear anywhere on the paper but the difference here is big enough to pay attention to.

    In summary, both taken together, it’s apparent that the theory that using soft shot will “open patterns” is supported by this experiment.

    Discussion and conclusion: All these patterns looked pretty good; I wouldn’t worry about any of the 20 of them. Are they as good as they look?

    There is another statistic in the Shotgun Insight program, the probability of a pellet hit in various areas of the patterns. In the inner 10 inches, they are all either 100% or close enough to not make any difference. Looking at other areas they are all practically identical as well.

    Trusting the probability data, and I do, I think that though the hard shot would give “more smoke,” the scores shot by these two shells would be the same.

    Yours in Sport,

    Neil
     
  13. superxjeff

    superxjeff Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    3,781
    Neil, It's to bad you didn't do the same test at Handicap yardage. The diffrences are much more apparent at 42 yards then 34 yards. Yours in sport. Jeff
     
  14. shot410ga

    shot410ga Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    7,778
    Jeff: I've always reloaded with the cheapest shot. Although, I never loaded with reclaimed or homemade. Through the years, on pattern boards, I have never seen a differance. If there is it eludes me.
     
  15. ink ball

    ink ball Member

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2007
    Messages:
    219
    Of course, two dimensional patterning boards don't take into account the difference in shot string length between "hard" and "soft" shot..."Soft" shot deforms more, becomes less aerodynmaic and lengthens the shot string as compared to "hard" shot.
     
  16. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    7,848
    "Lengthens" by how much, ink ball? An inch? A foot? Ten feet?

    And how do you know?

    Neil
     
  17. ink ball

    ink ball Member

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2007
    Messages:
    219
    Good question, Neil...Maybe with your connections, you can talk a semi-truck driver to drive his rig past you perpendicular to your shotgun muzzle as you fire at the side of his trailer and quantify that for us....
     
  18. superxjeff

    superxjeff Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    3,781
    This is old hat Neil... Brister proved all of this stuff years ago. Soft shot does indeed have a longer shot string as his moving patterns tests proved over and over again.Jeff
     
  19. JBrooks

    JBrooks TS Member

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2006
    Messages:
    3,707
    Steel shot?
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.