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Shooting over or under the birds?

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by Bisi, Apr 22, 2007.

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  1. Bisi

    Bisi TS Member

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    I was at the club today and we were just praticing playing games. There was a guy there who was really struggling. Every time he would miss his buddies would tell him that he was shooting over the bird. I don't know where he was shooting, I wasn't paying much attention, and besides I probably couldn't of told him where he was shooting anyway.

    After he missed target after target and his shooting mates telling him that he was shooting over the bird he got frustrated and quit. He came back to the clubhouse, leaving his buddies on the line. He came in and told a group of us sitting at the table what an awful day he was having. One of the "good" shooters at the table mentioned that it had been his experience that 80 percent of lost targets were shot under the bird. Well the guy went out and started breaking targets, and was happy again.

    My question is: Are most lost targets shot over the bird or under the bird? I know every time a 20 yard line All American sees me miss they tell me I shot over the bird. So what's your opinion? I think most people shoot under the bird.

    Bisi
     
  2. derbyacresbob

    derbyacresbob Well-Known Member

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    I agree most of the time people miss under the bird in trap shooting. I used to pull and keep score at our club's trap range and most of the time people would miss under the bird. You could really see it when the wind changed and started blowing at the trap house. Sitting down in a chair behind the shooters keeping score I could see the slight wind change would make the birds rise a little more than they had been. Quite a few times I saw this happen and as soon as the targets started rising a little people started missing. One time a lady that was shooting her first round of trap missed her first ten shots and I asked her if she could see the target when she pulled the trigger. Her answer was "WELL DUH yes I see the target when I pull the trigger". I told here that the targets were rising and to lead these rising targets with a field gun she would have to swing up through the target and as soon as it disapeared pull the trigger. She broke most of the last 15 targets after she started shooting higher.
     
  3. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Bisi- You have actually raised a broader question than shooting over/under birds. All of us want to help each other and are very free with advice. Much of the time, the person giving the advice is incorrect. If I am on a squad with a struggling shooter, I cannot see what they are doing and am not in a position to offer any advice. When I am scoring, I sometimes watch very specific things that might tell me why a shooter is shooting over or under birds. First thing I look at for 5-7 shots is the size and shape of the "cheek wrinkle" above the comb. If this changes shape between calling for the bird and shooting, I know what is happening. Then I will watch the front bill of their hat for a post or two. The bill of the hat should not tip up. Finally, I watch the body movement for a couple of posts. The upper body should move as a single unit. And, I also watch the birds so my scoring is accurate.

    After the person has finished shooting, I ask them if they would like my opinion about some problems they may be having. Before I give any advice, I spend the time trying to figure out what the shooter may be doing wrong. Bad advice is worse than no advice. If I am on the squad with the shooter and I have no idea what he is doing, all I can do is encourage him by saying something like "tough birds, lets do better on the next field."

    For the specific question, are most birds missed by shooting too high or too low, if the shooter is lifting his head he will most likely be shooting over the bird. If the shooter is swinging only with his arms and hot the upper body, he will often shoot under the bird.

    Pat Ireland
     
  4. scott calhoun

    scott calhoun Well-Known Member

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    FlaLagarto's got it right. I took a Kiner clinic also and Phil proved a couple of things regarding common mistakes on missed targets . . .

    - nearly impossible to shoot over a target

    - left angles (for right handed shooters) are almost always missed in front of the target

    - right angles (for right handed shooters) are almost always missed behind the target.

    As Jerry said, the video tape proved it.

    Phil had a term for those guys at your club who can tell you where you are shooting when you miss . . . 20-yard D Class All Americans!

    Scott
     
  5. Old Ranger

    Old Ranger Member

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    shootclays: Let me take a shot at answering that, at least partially. A shot pattern is not pie-shaped, it is shaped like a long football, and it is possible, even preferable, to have the bird fly into the shot. Putting that long football in front and above the bird allows the rising bird to fly into it.
     
  6. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Old Ranger- Even if a shot string was 10 feet long at 40 yards, the speed of the shot passing over the target and the rate at which the target is rising makes it nearly impossible for the target to rise into the pattern. The shot string would be over the target for only around 10-12/1000 of a second.

    Pat Ireland
     
  7. scott calhoun

    scott calhoun Well-Known Member

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    Shootclays -

    I wrote it, let me try to explain.

    What I should have probably said is that you don't shoot over a target as often as you THINK you do. That's what the videotape in Phil's clinic showed, not just our class but other classes as well. Windy conditions that cause lots of target movement (i.e. sudden drops) seem to be the exception, but on consistent targets you'll normally miss under.

    They way Phil explained it (and what the video tape shows) is that you see the target come out of the house and end up pulling the trigger before you ever make a move to the target. As you are doing that your brain recognizes the mistake and you raise the gun (typically with your front hand) and end up with the barrel above the target. That's the picture your brain remembers - barrel above the target - even though you pulled the trigger when the barrel was below the target. So you think you shot over the target.

    Hope that makes my statement a little more clear.

    Scott
     
  8. Bisi

    Bisi TS Member

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    I believe most missed birds are shot under, but yet 95% of the people who offer unasked for advice will tell you that you shot over the bird.
     
  9. scott calhoun

    scott calhoun Well-Known Member

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    Shootclays -

    I can't answer your question, I must not have been paying attention when Phil gave us the answer to that one!

    One way that always works is to make sure you see the target before you shoot at it. Phil also did a trick where he would have the video camera over your shoulder, set the trap on straights, and ask you to shoot 5 shots. Told you he wanted to check form, etc. One one of the five shots he would turn off the voice-activator, then you got to watch your gun barrel move toward an invisible target.

    One of the keys I got from his class was the ability to understand/analyze why I missed instead of depending on someone standing behind me to tell me (who was probably wrong). Now I know that if I miss a straight away it's probably because I didn't see the target very well before I pulled the trigger, or I shot in front of the left angle because I pushed the panic button.

    See if you can find someone with one of Phil's tapes, I think it's got the slo-mo video to illustrate some of these points.

    Scott
     
  10. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

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    The faster you shoot the bird, the harder it is to shoot over it. HMB
     
  11. Mac V

    Mac V Guest

    I've learned to smile and nod with a blank look when someone tells me they can see where my shot is going with their unaided eyes, particularly when they're sitting on a porch 20 yards behind the line.

    Mike
     
  12. Kingbang

    Kingbang TS Member

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    If im pretty close to directly behind a shooter I can see the shot for a split second.Most of the time they are behind and high with a trap gun, or behind and low with a field gun. 98% of the misses I make are due flat out to a sloppy move to the target and Im usually high and way out front. This is caused (my own opinion)from not making a smooth move to the target. I yank because I let my forearm hand take over instead of locking down into the gun and making my move from the ankles, for the lack of a better way of explaination. Now from 16 yards we can get away with this a few times. But from 24 yards back you won't get away with it at all. I put both elbows down, I would call this a compact hold, some may find a (right hand shooter) high right elbow works, whatever the case I believe the gun has to be locked in. Not to the point that you can't make a smooth move but at the same time not to where you don't have control. Confusing? probably. I can't speak for anyone else, but I believe that those that want to be at there best don't train and practice to be satisfied by breaking a 25. Its how hard did you break all 25. Ive only shot 1 25 that I was really happy with. It was more of an acomplishment than any 25-50-75 or my few 100's.I have said this more than once, if your mechanics are sound, FOCUS ON THE BIRD! SEE THE BIRD! you will shoot higher scores!

    JMHO

    Dennis
     
  13. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    Just for what it's worth, some guys have the ability to actually see the shotstring as it passes near the clay! It's certainly not the guy standing on the porch 20 yards behind the line either. With certain backgrounds, I've seen other shooters shotstring barely miss connecting with the clay and can tell exactly where he missed. Most I've seen were either low or behind, rarely in front. Never have seen my own though.

    Birdtracker that posts here has phenomenal eyesight and can call those shots accurately too. Hap
     
  14. scott calhoun

    scott calhoun Well-Known Member

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    Hap -

    Phil's video will show that for a right-handed shooter almost all misses on a left angle are in front of the target. It's amazing to watch at full speed when you are certain the shooter was behind the target - then watch the video in slo-mo and see the shotstring pass in front of the target. Exact opposite for right angles for a right-handed shooter. Almost always behind.

    Scott
     
  15. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    Scott, I knew that's what Phil finds with his camera on left angle targets for righties. Certain backgrounds and light conditions prevent us from seeing such detail as captured by the camera. Most I've personally seen were low and behind like I stated. More than likely, I'm looking slightly behind the target if watching for a miss as others shoot, that may be the reason. The camera don't lie that's for sure, some shooters can see shotstrings also but nothing like the video camera captures. I was just stating that some can and do see the shotstring, at times, not arguing with the ability of a good video camera to capture it all. Hap
     
  16. dmarbell

    dmarbell Active Member

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    Pat,

    Your 10-12/1000 of a second has to be based on a speed of about 1000 fps at 40 yards. I saw some shotshell ballistics (somewhere, who knows) which showed "average" speed of shot to a 40 yard target to be in the 700 fps range. That would mean shot is traveling at way less than 700 fps near the target at 40 yards.

    Anyone know of a reliable shotshell ballistics study or chart available?

    Also, I've heard that if you move the end of the barrel very fast in the direction of swing and bird movement, you can spread out the shot string horizontally. Hah. I think anyone who could come close to doing that reliably would have no problem putting bead on bird consistently anyway.

    Danny
     
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