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Shooting Lessons from the Pros-Helped-same-no help

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by 1oldtimer, Jun 28, 2010.

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  1. 1oldtimer

    1oldtimer TS Member

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    OK,You shelled out your big bucks for lessons to be able to shoot like the pro's. He pointed out all your flaws,had you practice and now you are shooting AAA-27 right,winning big bucks. Was this your experience? Was it worth while? How much did you retain? Did it really make you a good shooter? After all He taught you all the secrets of the pros,right? Was your experience great? good? OK? Rubbing shoulders with the pros was fun? Lets hear what happened to you when you went back to shooting on your own? Clyde Doll
     
  2. zzt

    zzt Well-Known Member

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    I've taken clinics with two pros I felt both were worth the price paid. As with anything new, you try out the suggestions and see what works. I shoot better now than I did before the clinics, but I am not AAA-27 and probably never will be. For me, it was money well spent.
     
  3. oleolliedawg

    oleolliedawg Banned User Banned TS Supporters

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    I took a Frank Little clinic many years ago. Near the end of the clinic, just prior to the beginning of his video presentation, he pulled me on the side. He said "Andy, you're a natural. Let's shoot some Doubles while the rest of the attendees watch movies". That one on one lesson told me he lied!!
     
  4. Rich219

    Rich219 Active Member

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    I've taken one on one instruction with Dave Shaeffer and I believe I got out at least what I expect from it.

    I went into the experience expecting knowing I had a few problems with my shooting and Dave was able to recognize three or four problems within the first fifteen minutes. After that he was able to work with me to correct what I was doing wrong.

    I was able to use what Dave helped me with to pretty much eliminate the mistakes I was making before.

    In my opinion if you are really bad the money spent on private instruction might not be worth it, but if you have a few problems with your game you can't figure out or fix I think private instruction might be just what the doctor ordered.

    I'm definitely planning on getting back together with Dave when he's in the area so I can keep my shooting going in the right direction.
     
  5. rhymeswithorange

    rhymeswithorange Member

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    I took a clinic from Phil Kiner recently, worth every penny. If nothing else, I left with confidence that my gun fit and that I was on the right track. That alone was worth the price. Plus, the few hundred bucks is really a drop in the bucket of what you will spend in a year shooting. What other sport can you get a full day with a champion for about $20 bucks an hour.

    Dave Eberhart
     
  6. kgun_shooter

    kgun_shooter Member

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    I've tried on several occassions to get a group of guys together for a clinic. Nobody ever seemed interested. I'm at the level of my game where I know what's going on if I miss at singles or doubles, but handicap is still a mystery to me. I would gladly pay a few hundred dollars for instruction just on handicap.
     
  7. code5coupe

    code5coupe Member

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    Took a two-day class last year from Nora.
    Several weeks later, shot my first 50 straight....then, a month later than that, my second 50 straight. This year, I'm lucky to shoot a 24 at any time.
    Go figure.
     
  8. Unknown1

    Unknown1 Well-Known Member

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    Being taught and learning something are two entirely different processes.

    Learning is a slow process for most. Many pro clinics are little more than demonstrations of techniques that work for the pro. They don't have the time (and many, the skill) to tailor a program of drill and practice for each student individually. Expecting to spend $300 and two days as part of a group with someone and then come away with new world-beating skills is naive and unrealistic.

    For that price, they can tell you if your gun fits and suggest a few changes, tell you if you're arm shooting, lifting your head and/or stopping the gun. YOU then have the job of using this information to develop your own practice program to correct these faults and build your own skills.

    MK
     
  9. Wolfman

    Wolfman Member

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    Unkown1, I have to disagree. Each student gets what the want and are willing to learn. I agree that many of the pros out there are 'mechanics', which means they teach you their way of shooting. Period. The best are the coaches that are good shooters, but better observers and can help you achieve you maximum potential.

    An example of a mechanic is Kaye, who is damn good, but wants you to shoot his way. And his way is excellent and proven. But maybe not for you. You aren't Kaye, and if you watch the best shoot, they all have subtle to significant differences in style. However, if you approach it as an empty cup, there is much to be learned.

    The coaches on the other hand will watch you shoot, ask you what you think your problems are, and also your objectives (yeah AAA27 - that's a BS answer). They then spend the time to blend your style with fixes that fit it in an attempt to help you. Last year at the D&D clinic, I wanted to improve doubles. To do that, I had to go to 2-eyed shooting. Off came the Shima patch, and my scores tanked for the year. Now I am getting the hang of it, and they are coming back. But...... he D&D guys said out right to shoot doubles, you have to use both eyes. And they are right. They worked hard to assist me, and teach me the techniques to make it work. Kaye told me the same thing 2 years previously, but I wasn't ready to accept that change, although I did pick up a number of other techniques from him.

    I've had the pleasure of being coached by a number of the best (Kaye among them), and have learned from each. I didn't learn the most from any one coach, and it has taken me several years to blend it together into a functional style for me. The hardest part is AFTER the lesson, retaining and applying on a consistent basis that which you learned in class. A friend took a course with me last year - he was struggling when he started the class. After 2 days, he was smacking them hard and high 20's with several 25's. He has since tanked again because he has fallen back to old habits.

    BTW - all this coaching, while improving my shooting, has not gotten me to the 27 yd line:-(
     
  10. Mark425

    Mark425 TS Member

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    I went to a trap clinic given by a well known pro and it did help some. I didn’t expect miracles and didn’t get them but I did pick up a few things that helped, was worth it IMO. That is the only trap instruction I have received from a pro. Read the books and watch a few videos as well. The books and videos helped as well.

    I moved to my present location 4 years ago and sadly it’s difficult to find any place to shoot trap. I am only able to shoot trap a few times a year now.


    All that said, I have taken up Sporting Clays and I am determined to make it to Master Class one day. I went to a couple of clinics, they were OK. After that I decided that I would try to take regular lessons from a nationally known instructor that’s not too far from me. Let me tell you... individual instruction from a good coach makes all the difference in the world. My shooting is years ahead of where it would be without it. I highly recommend INDIVIDUAL instruction from a great instructor. Only do clinics if you cant find a true professional instructor.

    Mark

    p.s. Unless you’re having some very basic problems, don’t waste your cash on a so so instructor.
     
  11. EXFDX

    EXFDX Member

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    I took a clinic from Phil Kiner several years ago (1800 mile or so round trip from Memphis to St. Paul and back) but I remember to this day what he taught and I have to say he is right: "If your gun is shooting where you are looking (HUGE question) and you are looking at the target, you should never miss." When I miss, it is always in the equation of "See the bird. Shoot the bird." That simple. When I miss, my head is not firmly on the stock so the back sight is too high. I seem to shoot very, very quickly, but once I can see the bird clearly, I shoot. There is nothing to wait for except more chances to miss. The high school kids I coach sometimes get very tired of the two most frequent things I say: "It's not the arrow, it's the indian." and the proverbial, "See the bird. Shoot the bird".

    BTW, I can still email or even call Phil and not only does he remember me somehow, but he returns the call or email pretty promptly.

    Steve Oehmen
     
  12. wolfram

    wolfram Well-Known Member

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    I took a two day clinic from Phil Kiner also. I think it would be unreasonable to expect that limited amount of training to make anyone a AAA+ shooter but the advice I did recive from Phil did improve my trap shooting game. When ever I start missing targets I just go back to a couple key bits of learning that Phil supplied and that always cures the problem. The guy does know what he is talking about.

    But to answer the first poster's question, the money I spent on Phil Kiner has been the best investment I have made in the game of trap shooting.
     
  13. Trap2

    Trap2 Well-Known Member

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    I have taken clinics from 3 of the "pro's" over my shooting career. The best one I took was with the late Frank Little. Unfortunately, it was early in my registered shooting career, and most of what he tried to teach me went over my head at the time. Now, all these years later, I realize that I must have paid some attention to him at some point. I still have his book, his video's, and, more importantly, all the notes I made from that early clinic. I refer to them on a continual basis, and all he tried to teach me now makes perfect sense. The other two clinics I took were just a total waste of my time, and my money.... While some instructors are better than others, there are a few out there that have no business even attempting to try to teach others. Their focus is soley on the money they can get from you, nothing else.... It was just my luck to have found a couple of them.... Just my experience.... Dan Thome (Trap2)
     
  14. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    It certainly doesn't take a professional shooter to point out flaws in shotgun shooting techniques. Like Dan T. says, most instructions are just that, pointing out the flaws without a real fix. Conveying to a student "how" to prevent that flaw from interfering and why it's there separates instructors in a hurry. Knowing the teacher is mighty good shooter himself must have more than shooting ability to convey his analysis to the student in terms the student will understand and see for himself, his mistakes. Merely knowing the mistakes is only the first step in fixing it. One on one personal instructions with a teacher having the ability to recognize and offer up such fixes are the ones to spend your cash on. Those teachers wanting a shooter to do it "my way" isn't smart enough to realize that everyone has different reflexes, timing and eyesight abilities that may be vastly different than said pro? How could the student ever get to that point with such differences? (Impossible!) Choose wisely the way you spend your cash and not out of desperation for a hurry up fix. That just won't happen most of the time.

    Hap
     
  15. grnberetcj

    grnberetcj Active Member

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    There is also the factor of:

    "You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear"

    Some shooter's have little ability to begin with and wasting money on professional instruction is fruitless.

    But, they are good for the economy.

    Curt
     
  16. Mark425

    Mark425 TS Member

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    I don’t know any PRO trapshooters to say if they use coaches but I do personally know two national winning sporting clay shooters that have full time coaches.

    That doesn’t have much to do with my amateur shooting ability but I am still a firm believer that if you want to make it near the top...you got to have a coach (unless your 1 in 1,000,000).

    Find a good coach if you want to really be a competitor, if you're out to have fun than get a good trap book or DVD.
     
  17. Trap2

    Trap2 Well-Known Member

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    Steve..... Yes, he was the one. Funny thing is, I'm finally shooting the high POI he taught me and it's working..... Go figure.

    The weather here has been great since I got back from Kingsburg. High's in the high 60's to low 70's, with sun every day. We have a 3 day shoot this weekend and it should be a good one to attend if you want to escape the heat... Dan
     
  18. juststartin'

    juststartin' Member

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    Had private lessons with Rick Marshall, Jr., plus an additional clinic with him. Everything that was taught was absolutely applicable. The techniques and principals have to be PRACTICED and APPLIED! I rarely practice and don't really get enough registered targets in, therefore the averages reflect. But IMHO, Rick's worth the money, definitely...Tom Strabavy
     
  19. JTEA

    JTEA Member

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    I bought Phil Kiner's video this Spring, I highly recommend it for basics. A lot of information; will keep referring to it in the future. He explains but also has camera looking over shoulder of shooter's making mistakes. I have Frank Little's tape and used to watch him and Kay shoot. Frank had a number of barrels with different impact points.

    I've found that most shooters know what works for them, many won't understand your particular dynamics and needs in gun fit, movement, vision etc. Short neck guys can't understand why you need so much drop in the pad if you have a longer neck. I finally have 4" drop from rib to top of pad and a higher rib. Now I'm locked in and seeing the target. Gun weight / balance / rib height etc. are all personal. For example, I understand how a thin old guy shoots with a heavy 13+ lb. gun, a long slow swing and lead with follow through at some distance. He has slower eyes and reaction time. I just don't want to do it that way nor enjoy it.

    JT
     
  20. Lyle

    Lyle Member

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    I find it interesting that trapshooting clinics are generally only taught, at least nationally, by those that "can do". In other words, if you are not an All-American no one is interested in paying for your advice.

    I believe that being an All American does not make you a good instructor but being a good instructor makes you a good instructor. If we look at other sports like GOLF, how many of the pros have coaches that are not elite golfers themselves?

    I watched a clinic at the Grand one year given by one of the current "hot shots". He was working with young kids while smoking a cigarrette which did not show a whole lot of professionalism in my opinion.

    Anyway, that being said........I took a clinic from Phil Kiner and I felt that his instructional technique was very good and he was certainly worth the time and money spent. I was already on the 27 but followed the instruction with several honorary punches over the next couple of years. I ran into him in Vernal a couple of years ago and he offered to meet me at the practice trap for free for a follow up if I wished which was classy of him.

    Lyle
     
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